Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Sancocho]

The truth is that not long ago many Americans thought that enslavement was a morally and legally acceptable behavior. Now days most Americans will reject human enslavement both morally and legally, and yet will inexplicably support the physical and economic exploitation of other human beings for the sake of profit. Which is the ideological essence of human enslavement.

Yes. this is a consequence of poorly developed doctrine and trying to subjugate the Word of God to man's laws.

 

[Sancocho]

The truth is that now many Americans think it is okay to kill your baby

It is the same phenomenon. People are afraid to think outside of the box, even Christians. Jesus can set us free.

 

[PureX]

Yes. this is a consequence of poorly developed doctrine and trying to subjugate the Word of God to man's laws.

I don't think anyone is trying to "subjugate the word of God to man's laws" (though I do believe many subjugate those words to their own desires). They are simply interpreting those words in ways that allow them to continue exploiting and abusing other people, and allows others to do the same in the name of commerce and profit. What they are doing is allowing their worship of material wealth to blind them to the spirit of God in Christ that exists within themselves, and within others. So that everyone becomes a slave to mammon, willingly or unwillingly. You're so busy trying to blame everything on the government that you're missing the fact that the government is just a reflection of us.

The exploitation (enslavement) begins with us. And so does the healing (emancipation). But first we have to be willing to admit that we are wrong, and that we need to change.

 

[aikido7]

That's nice.

Did you hear someone saying this murderer is not a racist?

Yes.

The fact that you had to add a qualifier shows you knew exactly what I meant: Racism is not a crime; it cannot bring judicial punishment.

I know perfectly well what you mean, as do you of me.

You're desperate to talk about false flags and the feelings of other people rather than say this murderer should be executed.

I am not aware of "wanting to talk about false flags" but perhaps you see something that I don't. I am pro-life, volunteer at a prison, and am convinced that life in prison is the worst punishment.

 

[kmoney]

There's really not much difference. The only objection I have with hate crimes laws is that they tend to enumerate specific protected attributes, but I tend to generalize to any trait that could be a source of identity for an individual.



I don't think so. It could be an imaginary subgroup, perhaps, because the way the laws are written premises it upon the intentions of the perpetrator. But the people actually harmed by the hate crime are the subgroup that was targeted.



Yes. What would be the relevant distinction?

Taking a step back.....what harm do people in the subgroup receive? In what way can they say they are victimized too?

 

[kmoney]

I do think there is an extraordinary threat to society when the victims were chosen by happenstance. People who kill indiscriminately prove by their actions that they remain a mortal threat, to everyone. Whereas this is not necessarily the case with people who kill for money, or revenge, or in a some chemical stupor.

That is sort of what I'm trying to get at also. If hate crimes are predicated on a subgroup being terrorized and threatened, then certain crimes could do that against the entire community.

 

[rexlunae]

Taking a step back.....what harm do people in the subgroup receive? In what way can they say they are victimized too?

They are marginalized, given the feeling of being specially unsafe or unwanted in their communities, and often forced to withdraw from public life as a defense against further violence.

 

[Granite]

PS Granite, since the East hated slavery - why did Child Labor Laws have to be established because the East was working children as well as poor immigrants for long hours in horrible conditions and it became only worse and worse once factory production got better?

Still feeling self righteous, brother?

I haven't and you're ignorant.

 

[Granite]

Yep, so much so that Lincoln pushed thru the Corwin Amendment to the Constituition. So much for your slavery issue. Dead on arrival.

Lincoln literally was by the time slavery's end was codified.

It isn't news that you haven't read it.

Sure I have. You're just being a revisionist pro-reb tool. Plenty of those still around.

It was because which Lincoln put it that blacks weren't WELCOME in the new states to be created. Some hero you got there Granite.

Who said he was my "hero"?

What a load of horse manure. So much so, that there was roughly only 6% of the southern population who owned slaves.

This kind of willful ignorance and denial of reality's kind of fascinating to see, I have to admit. Have you criticized the institution of slavery once during this discussion? Criticized the CSA for defending it? Protecting it? Declaring white supremacy its cornerstone? Knocked the rebs for declaring state by state that the perpetuation of slavery was part and parcel their reason for secession? Have you denounced the Cornerstone Speech for the filth it is?

No, you haven't. Not this thread. The closest thing you've come is a mighty generous declaration that it's not "the black man" to blame, and that "racism sucks." Bravo, doc. You go. You really go.

It may be worth pointing out that "only" six percent of any country being slave owners is about six percent too much. I mean, a few million slaves here or there--pretty soon you start talking about a most peculiar institution indeed. What kind of rationalization are you trying to pull here?

And it might also be worth saying that a country built on the proposition of the white man's supremacy over the black is reprehensible and indefensible. But pointing out the facts to any Confederate sympathizer's never really worked. Facts are inconvenient. They got in the way of slavery in 1861 and they get in the way of reality today.

Just...stunning.

 

[Stripe]

Yes.

A credible source, please. :up:

I know perfectly well what you mean.

Then why the qualifier and why the disagreement?

I am pro-life.

Only if we ignore the exceptions you hold to.

I am convinced that life in prison is the worst punishment.

Great. Then execution would be right up your alley.

 

[Tinark]

People with more guns tend to kill more people. With guns.

 

[Stripe]

People with more guns tend to kill more people. With guns.

How are the deaths being counted?

 

[rainee]

I haven't and you're ignorant.

Why am I being called ignorant when you are even allowing the flag that had been there to somehow be a reason the 20 year old shooter went and killed people?

You can't say a word about the angry blacks on TV romping and stomping, tearing things up, saying sometimes completely false accusations - a bit like you maybe have done? You don't think in his wound up brain he wasn't possibly feeling driven and provoked?

I don't want a race war and some here like you seem to be enticing one.

The rebel flag was never about slavery or against blacks - it was against Yankees, wasn't it, brother? The white Easterners who used and abused the Chinese worse than some would ever treat their slaves to build railroads, worked poor whites for practically nothing, ripped them off in the cost of living quarters and said what was said about slavery to break the plantations advantage and hold on them - and then to simply break the South.

But even now as I say this it has been here in the US where we have tried over and over to right wrongs.

Racism in other countries is perhaps not condemned by liberals here
But it has been beyond horrific in some places my President and Easterners here would never like to hear spoken of. Am I ignorant or is there dishonesty and hypocrisy ringing out everywhere in the liberal camp so eager to blame this shooting on something akin to a video being the cause of Benghazi?

 

[bybee]

Why am I being called ignorant when you are even allowing the flag that had been there to somehow be a reason the 20 year old shooter went and killed people?

You can't say a word about the angry blacks on TV romping and stomping, tearing things up, saying sometimes completely false accusations - a bit like you maybe have done? You don't think in his wound up brain he wasn't possibly feeling driven and provoked?

I don't want a race war and some here like you seem to be enticing one.

The rebel flag was never about slavery or against blacks - it was against Yankees, wasn't it, brother? The white Easterners who used and abused the Chinese worse than some would ever treat their slaves to build railroads, worked poor whites for practically nothing, ripped them off in the cost of living quarters and said what was said about slavery to break the plantations advantage and hold on them - and then to simply break the South.

But even now as I say this it has been here in the US where we have tried over and over to right wrongs.

Racism in other countries is perhaps not condemned by liberals here
But it has been beyond horrific in some places my President and Easterners here would never like to hear spoken of. Am I ignorant or is there dishonesty and hypocrisy ringing out everywhere in the liberal camp so eager to blame this shooting on something akin to a video being the cause of Benghazi?

Good points!
He condemns completely all of those who do not agree with his assessments 100%. He is narrow-minded, parochial and mean spirited in defense of his own world view.

 

[Granite]

Why am I being called ignorant when you are even allowing the flag that had been there to somehow be a reason the 20 year old shooter went and killed people?

If you think people are blaming the flag for this atrocity you're completely confused.

I don't want a race war and some here like you seem to be enticing one.

Which just proves you're completely foolish and, again, ignorant.

The rebel flag was never about slavery or against blacks - it was against Yankees, wasn't it, brother?

It was all about slavery because the Confederacy was. You can't have one without the other.

 

[tetelestai]

The rebel flag was never about slavery or against blacks

That's like saying the swastika was never about antisemitism or against Jews.

I can't believe in this day and age that people actually defend the Confederate Flag.

 

[Granite]

That's like saying the swastika was never about antisemitism or against Jews.

I can't believe in this day and age that people actually defend the Confederate Flag.

You hear occasionally (and you can imagine from what types) that the swastika should no longer be considered offensive given its extremely long, benign history before the Nazis appropriated it. Does this make displaying the swastika acceptable? For me--absolutely not. Any good the symbol once stood for is completely overshadowed by what it eventually became.

In fact a better case could theoretically be made for the swastika since it once at least represented good. The rebel flag never really did.

 

[tetelestai]

People with more guns tend to kill more people. With guns.

Your stupid Mother Jones graph is counting suicides.

About 50% of all gun deaths are suicides, and over 75% of these suicides by gun are by white people.

Find a graph that shows only homicides by guns. When you do, you will see that over 70% of the homicides are committed by young Black and Hispanic men. 50% of all gun homicide victims are Black and Hispanic men in their 20's.

 

[tetelestai]

In fact a better case could theoretically be made for the swastika since it once at least represented good. The rebel flag never really did.

I agree.

Just about every White Supremacist group out there uses the Confederate Flag and the Nazi Swastika.

Yet, people like rainee and others claim the Confederate Flag has nothing to do with racism.

If it doesn't have anything to do with racism, then why does every racist group use the Confederate Flag?

One person actually posted a pic of KKK members with an American flag, and some how thought that proves that the KKK doesn't use the Confederate Flag.

Like I said, it's mind boggling that people today defend the Confederate Flag.

 

[rainee]

Oh wow.

First thank you Bybee for speaking up, hug!

Now then where to start...


I do not defend the Rebel Flag. But I do not forget that a bunch of hypocrites are apparently trying to imbue meaning to it.
I do not want black citizens of the United States to believe liberals using old East Coast lies.
I don't blame black people for believing them back then but please not now.

Rebel Flag can mean a lot of things because it was all about rebelling and trying to leave The North Eastern Buttheads.

The East didn't support segregation after the big deal they made about the South - so what did they do? Where black families could afford to live was where white families moved out up there and inner city slums and poor schooling with only children of color attending resulted.

I do not want liberals over simplifying and hiding and twisting truths in their effort to look and sound better than their chosen victims as they try to shame someone.

You BooBoo heads