Sexual Orientation is not a Choice

[glassjester]

No, you can't always choose that. We can choose whether or not we want to surrender to our desires, but we can't always choose what we desire. Try as I might, I just can't find it in me to like a man like I like women. I tried as a test to your assertion that I could, but I can't do it.

I don't think you wanted to want to be attracted to men.

 

[bybee]

I don't think you wanted to want to be attracted to men.

Get over yourself! Some things are hard wired and cannot be changed. However, behavior can be controlled.

 

[Sancocho]

Regarding homosexuality I believe it is prudent to recognize certain facts based on the evidence available:

1. Persons can have UNWANTED sexual desires that deviate from the majority norm. Homosexuality, bestiality and fetishes are all example.

2. Some people erroneously claim that children are sexualized from an early age. Nonetheless, this has been refuted.

3. Those who promote homosexuality as innate IGNORE relevant studies regarding child psychology that show the fragile state of children that can be influenced by social factors.

4. Plethoras of studies funded by the US government has shown for many teenager homosexuality is fluid and over time the subjects of these massive surveys gravitate toward exclusive OSA. (opposite sex attraction) In fact there are more ex homosexuals alive than homosexuals.

Taking these factor into account it is relevant as a Christian to turn to Scripture to fill in the rest of the picture. The Bible clearly tells us the arrogant are prone to SSA (same sex attraction) and in fact is shown in the Sodom narrative. Also, from the studies I mentioned there is a small group of homosexuals (<2% I believe of the total population) that resist change and I think it is only logical they are classified as resisting God.

Regarding the aforementioned group of individuals that have unwanted SSA that change to OSA over time it is clear these are not the same individuals that have issues with arrogance but those that have been influenced in their early formative years and have become confused and ceded to societal pressure. It is relevant to note in Scripture that Jesus tells us to protect children from being misled with very dangerous consequences if we do because He is quite aware of their ability to be misled and confused, after all He understand God's creation. Unfortunately, the US is doing the exact opposite of what Scripture and science tell us to do, and worse millions of Christians support this.

 

[glassjester]

Get over yourself! Some things are hard wired and cannot be changed. However, behavior can be controlled.

You sincerely wished (as a test) that you were attracted to men?

All I'm saying is I don't think you really wanted that to happen.

 

[bybee]

You sincerely wished (as a test) that you were attracted to men?

All I'm saying is I don't think you really wanted that to happen.

I have always been attracted to men...one man in particular. I was married to him for almost 53 years and we had five children together.
In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine a sexual attraction to another woman.

 

[glassjester]

I have always been attracted to men...one man in particular. I was married to him for almost 53 years and we had five children together.
In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine a sexual attraction to another woman.

I apologize for my mistake!

 

[CabinetMaker]

I don't think you wanted to want to be attracted to men.

But you say that I could be if I worked at it. I am saying that at the most basic level, there is nothing that attracts me to men. You were attracted to smoking for some reason, to look cool most likely so you worked at it. Since the time I entered puberty and began to understand what sex is (and isn't) I have instinctually been attracted to women. There was never a doubt about my sexual orientation.

 

[glassjester]

But you say that I could be if I worked at it. I am saying that at the most basic level, there is nothing that attracts me to men. You were attracted to smoking for some reason, to look cool most likely so you worked at it. Since the time I entered puberty and began to understand what sex is (and isn't) I have instinctually been attracted to women. There was never a doubt about my sexual orientation.

My claim was that orientation is a sort of illusion. That partner preference is developed - that it's a taste. I also claimed that we cultivate tastes for things by building habits, and our habits are patterns of behaviors - actions which we are free to choose.

You disagree, and that makes for good discussion. We should examine the disagreement.

Do you say sexual orientation is inborn?

 

[CabinetMaker]

My claim was that orientation is a sort of illusion. That partner preference is developed - that it's a taste. I also claimed that we cultivate tastes for things by building habits, and our habits are patterns of behaviors - actions which we are free to choose.

You disagree, and that makes for good discussion. We should examine the disagreement.

Do you say sexual orientation is inborn?

I believe that orientation is inborn. I have never met anybody, gay or straight, that can say that on this date they chose to be gay or straight. They just always knew.

What one chooses to do with their orientation is a separate matter entirely.

 

[bybee]

I apologize for my mistake!

Not a problem.

 

[glassjester]

I believe that orientation is inborn. I have never met anybody, gay or straight, that can say that on this date they chose to be gay or straight. They just always knew.

What one chooses to do with their orientation is a separate matter entirely.

This may be worth mentioning - According to the American Psychiatric Association:

Sexual orientation is a relatively new concept. In fact, although same sex behavior has always existed, the idea of a homosexual identity or a homosexual person is only about 100 years old.
The concept of sexual orientation refers to more than sexual behavior. It includes feelings as well as identity. Some individuals may identify themselves as gay lesbian or bisexual without engaging in any sexual activity. Some people believe that sexual orientation is innate and fixed; however, sexual orientation develops across a person’s lifetime.

I think the whole orientation paradigm forces people to believe they must fit into one of the categories it defines. This, as opposed to viewing sexual interactions as the act of choosing a specific partner.

Let's go with the idea that orientation is inborn. How would this apply to times and places that had no concept of orientation? For most of human history, people had no sense of "identifying" as homosexual or heterosexual.

Were they all somehow born without orientation? Did people suddenly start being born with an orientation in the past century?


Was everyone in ancient Greece born bisexual?

 

[quip]

Let's go with the idea that orientation is inborn. How would this apply to times and places that had no concept of orientation? For most of human history, people had no sense of "identifying" as homosexual or heterosexual.

Do you have any evidence for this assertion?

 

[CabinetMaker]

This may be worth mentioning - According to the American Psychiatric Association:



I think the whole orientation paradigm forces people to believe they must fit into one of the categories it defines. This, as opposed to viewing sexual interactions as the act of choosing a specific partner.

Let's go with the idea that orientation is inborn. How would this apply to times and places that had no concept of orientation? For most of human history, people had no sense of "identifying" as homosexual or heterosexual.

They must have had some sense since God said homosexual acts are an abomination. Whatever word they used to describe it, they understood the concept.

Were they all somehow born without orientation? Did people suddenly start being born with an orientation in the past century?

The word that we use today is, "orientation." At its most basic, it describes our attraction towards other people. People are attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex or just sex in general. As we enter puberty our basic orientation will first become noticeable as we will be attracted to males or females. That first attraction reveals our orientation and it is largely an involuntary reaction, we are simply attracted to somebody.

Was everyone in ancient Greece born bisexual?

Doubtful. Social norms can and do influence people. If a society routinely accepts and encourages bisexual activities then people can come to accept it. That does not change the fact that people will almost always have a strong instinctual preference for one gender or the other.

 

[bybee]

This may be worth mentioning - According to the American Psychiatric Association:



I think the whole orientation paradigm forces people to believe they must fit into one of the categories it defines. This, as opposed to viewing sexual interactions as the act of choosing a specific partner.

Let's go with the idea that orientation is inborn. How would this apply to times and places that had no concept of orientation? For most of human history, people had no sense of "identifying" as homosexual or heterosexual.

Were they all somehow born without orientation? Did people suddenly start being born with an orientation in the past century?


Was everyone in ancient Greece born bisexual?

Well, for starters, females have large breasteses (as one of my little grand sons iterated) they have monthly cycles and they get pregnant. Males have large muscles and external sexual apparatus and they don't get pregnant. If they engage in anal sex, sooner or later they need diapers.

 

[glassjester]

They must have had some sense since God said homosexual acts are an abomination. Whatever word they used to describe it, they understood the concept.

Right. Acts. There's no sense of someone "being" homosexual or heterosexual. There's just the idea that there are sexual acts that are acceptable and unacceptable to God.

The word that we use today is, "orientation." At its most basic, it describes our attraction towards other people. People are attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex or just sex in general. As we enter puberty our basic orientation will first become noticeable as we will be attracted to males or females. That first attraction reveals our orientation and it is largely an involuntary reaction, we are simply attracted to somebody.

And from that point on, it's set in stone? From the FIRST attraction? Bold claim.

Doubtful. Social norms can and do influence people. If a society routinely accepts and encourages bisexual activities then people can come to accept it. That does not change the fact that people will almost always have a strong instinctual preference for one gender or the other.

This seems to contradict your earlier statement.

On the highlighted statement, I would agree. Would I be wrong to assert that if a society routinely accepts and encourages heterosexual activities, then people can come to accept it?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Right. Acts. There's no sense of someone "being" homosexual or heterosexual. There's just the idea that there are sexual acts that are acceptable and unacceptable to God.

I find it odd that somebody who is attracted only to women would have sex with another man. In any case, the sin of homosexuality does not lie in experiencing sexual attraction for somebody of the same sex, it is in acting on it (unless you are looking at them lustfully). Same with adultery. I may be attracted to a woman who is not my wife but if never act on that attraction, there is no sin.

And from that point on, it's set in stone? From the FIRST attraction? Bold claim.

It seems to be. People try to fight it and may even marry against their nature. Those marriages don't tend to fare well over the long run.

This seems to contradict your earlier statement.

I see no contradiction. There is what we are born with and there is what we learn to accept as we go through life. For some, they will have no problem going along with the crowd. For others, they will remain firm in their preference for males or females.

On the highlighted statement, I would agree. Would I be wrong to assert that if a society routinely accepts and encourages heterosexual activities, then people can come to accept it?

You are welcome to assert it but I don't think that evidence supports it. Humans are overwhelmingly heterosexual. It is routinely accepted and encouraged in movies and commercials and TV shows and pretty much every aspect of our lives. Yet somewhere between 2% and 7% of the population reject it a favor of same-sex activities.

 

[glassjester]

I see no contradiction. There is what we are born with and there is what we learn to accept as we go through life. For some, they will have no problem going along with the crowd. For others, they will remain firm in their preference for males or females.

You are welcome to assert it but I don't think that evidence supports it. Humans are overwhelmingly heterosexual. It is routinely accepted and encouraged in movies and commercials and TV shows and pretty much every aspect of our lives. Yet somewhere between 2% and 7% of the population reject it a favor of same-sex activities.

You stated that if society "encourages bisexual activities, then people can come to accept it."

So a heterosexual person and a homosexual person could be influenced to "accept" bisexuality?

 

[Sancocho]

I think it is relevant to remember that there is no viable scientific study that can show a biological source of homosexuality.

I understand people may use themselves or others they know as examples bu this is anecdotal evidence only and is easily relegated as statistically insignificant when compared to actual studies that show the fluidity of CHOICE-LESS sexual desire WITH A CLEAR GRAVITATION TO EXCLUSIVE OSA.

For anyone interested in being effective and apologetics and leading people to Christ this is essential to know. I understand that many would claim that homosexuality is innate but that God does not want people to act on this but this theory, apart from being baseless scientifically nor much less biblically, is the root cause of millions of American Christians embracing homosexuality as "good" based on the logic that sin requires knowledge of wrong and therefore if there is no wrong there is no sin. I have been telling this to people for over 25 years and few apparently have grasped this simple logical concept, yet I have watched more and more Christians embrace this false understanding with obviously tragic results.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You stated that if society "encourages bisexual activities, then people can come to accept it."

So a heterosexual person and a homosexual person could be influenced to "accept" bisexuality?

Some could, most probably wouldn't.

 

[glassjester]

Some could, most probably wouldn't.

During the Liu Song Dynasty in China (420 - 479 AD), homosexual relationships occurred as often as heterosexual ones.

All the gentlemen and officials esteemed it. All men in the realm followed this fashion to the extent that husbands and wives were estranged. Resentful unmarried women became jealous.

In ancient Greece, a homosexual relationship was considered a rite of passage and extremely common as well.


Is your "some could, most wouldn't" hypothesis evidence-based?