Sexual Orientation is not a Choice

[glassjester]

"Freely chosen" is a relative condition. Freedom is not absolute. For example, I am not free to levitate from my chair right now even though I might choose to do so. In fact, at any given time I am not free to do a great many things I might otherwise choose to do.

So our freedom of choice is limited by the actual possibilities that are available to us. And if that's not limiting enough, any possibilities we might have, but are unaware of as being possible, are also not going to be considered an option, even though they may be. So, in fact, this freedom of choice that you are viewing as absolute, is really very limited by, and relative to, the actual possibilities available to us. And of those limited possibilities, who knows why we choose one over the other? Sometimes we choose by reason, sometimes by intuition, sometimes we choose consciously and sometimes we choose sub-consciously. And our choices are governed by many conditions and circumstances that we do not control, and may not even be aware of.

So this idea that we are all choosing, all the time, and are therefor always responsible for our choices is very overly-simplistic, and I think, rather naive.

I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

My question remains: How do you know whether an action was freely chosen or not?

 

[Puppet]

A gay infant boy on his first day can't help thier mother treating them like a girl. Its the parents that makes them gay. Thats the qualifications of the elder. They must control the children. Sissying means not controling. My sister aborted and much later glad to have her first child. The extreme long term gladness made her son gay. He needed that long term closeness later in his life so he got married to another man in Vegas, the sin city. Now he is still a baby ruined by his mother. He ought to be a plumber.

 

[gcthomas]

A gay infant boy on his first day can't help thier mother treating them like a girl. Its the parents that makes them gay. Thats the qualifications of the elder. They must control the children. Sissying means not controling. My sister aborted and much later glad to have her first child. The extreme long term gladness made her son gay. He needed that long term closeness later in his life so he got married to another man in Vegas, the sin city. Now he is still a baby ruined by his mother. He ought to be a plumber.

So the young man had a doting mother. Why assume that one factor was dominant in his homosexuality? Millions of experiences separated his birth from his recognition of his orientation, and not forgetting the interaction of hundreds of thousands of genes with the many environmental influences.

And out of all those billions of possible factors you select the single one that happens to reinforce your preexisting belief.

Soooo, what evidence do you have for rejecting all those other possible factors? Identical twin studies, large scale longitudinal cohort studies? State of the art developmental neuroscience? Or gut instinct and hope?

 

[PureX]

I don't disagree with anything you just wrote.

My question remains: How do you know whether an action was freely chosen or not?

The answer is that much of the time, we don't. Do I choose to like brussel sprouts? Do I like them because I was taught to like them as a small child and don't remember? Do I like them because I am genetically predisposed to like them by the way my taste buds react to them? Any of these is possible whether I realize it, or not. In fact, it's likely that several of these is true, simultaneously.

So am I 'guilty' of liking brussel sprouts? Or maybe partly guilty? How can I even know? And this is just brussel sprouts. Imagine how much more complicated and difficult it is to assess guilt regarding sexual preferences, and choices, and behaviors.

 

[bybee]

The answer is that much of the time, we don't. Do I choose to like brussel sprouts? Do I like them because I was taught to like them as a small child and don't remember? Do I like them because I am genetically predisposed to like them by the way my taste buds react to them? Any of these is possible whether I realize it, or not. In fact, it's likely that several of these is true, simultaneously.

So am I 'guilty' of liking brussel sprouts? Or maybe partly guilty? How can I even know? And this is just brussel sprouts. Imagine how much more complicated and difficult it is to assess guilt regarding sexual preferences, and choices, and behaviors.

I would suggest that guilt is largely a learned response imposed on children by parents during the socialization process.
Yet, as a child, there were things that I felt were wrong without anyone telling me so.
As to taste? It is most certainly a genetic, chemical response.
When I was a little girl, my father, with good intentions I'm sure, forced me to eat liver. I put a piece in my mouth (he was not the kind of father one could disobey) and chewed and chewed as scalding tears streamed down my face. All of a sudden I gagged and spewed projectile vomit all over the table. My mother was so enraged that she took him to task and never again was I forced to eat anything.

 

[gcthomas]

My question remains: How do you know whether an action was freely chosen or not?

Why does it matter, really? What is the importance of whether an action was caused by a decision of the spirit or from the interaction of genes with environment? Free will is not a prerequisite for responsibility or accountability - it matters only whether a behaviour responds to praise or blame/punishment.

Tourette's, for example, responds to encouragement to practise and persevere over control of the tics, so that almost complete control can be attained for the sufferer. Did he or she choose to experience the effects of Tourette's? Probably not, but it is amenable to modification via praise and blame.

Is the same true for sexual orientation? Althought there may be environmental influences on the expressed preference as a child grows to adulthood, there is no reason to believe that a choice was made. Experiments also demonstrate that, unlike Tourette's, sexual orientation is not amenable to modification though encouragement, praise, blame or any sort of therapy or coercion.

 

[PureX]

I would suggest that guilt is largely a learned response imposed on children by parents during the socialization process.
Yet, as a child, there were things that I felt were wrong without anyone telling me so.
As to taste? It is most certainly a genetic, chemical response.
When I was a little girl, my father, with good intentions I'm sure, forced me to eat liver. I put a piece in my mouth (he was not the kind of father one could disobey) and chewed and chewed as scalding tears streamed down my face. All of a sudden I gagged and spewed projectile vomit all over the table. My mother was so enraged that she took him to task and never again was I forced to eat anything.

I have no doubt that just as some heterosexuals would have a similar physical aversion to performing a homosexual act, there are some homosexuals who would be that physically averse to performing a heterosexual act. And yet even as this is true, it's also true that some people would be comfortable in either instance. While others are not comfortable with sex of any kind.

And in most cases, regardless of the comfort level of each, and with which form of sexuality, few of them ever actually CHOSE their proclivities, or their reactions.

 

[glassjester]

As to taste? It is most certainly a genetic, chemical response.
When I was a little girl, my father, with good intentions I'm sure, forced me to eat liver. I put a piece in my mouth (he was not the kind of father one could disobey) and chewed and chewed as scalding tears streamed down my face. All of a sudden I gagged and spewed projectile vomit all over the table. My mother was so enraged that she took him to task and never again was I forced to eat anything.

When I was a teenager I tried smoking. It smelled bad. It tasted worse. It made me feel sick.

But I wanted to want to smoke. I freely chose to do it again. I freely decided to develop a taste for smoking.

I eventually came to enjoy smoking. I liked the smell. I liked the taste. I liked the feeling. I smoked throughout high school. I smoked throughout college. I smoked intermittently until age 25.

I then freely chose to quit smoking. I missed the taste. I missed the smell. I missed the feeling.

That was five years ago. Now I no longer miss it.


Could I acquire a taste for it again? Sure. I choose not to cultivate that behavior pattern.

Were there times I didn't want to stop? Of course - a decade probably!
But at an intellectual level, I came to the conclusion, based on reason, that I wanted to want to stop.

We choose which behaviors to reinforce. We choose which behaviors we allow to develop into habits. We choose which tastes to cultivate.

 

[glassjester]

And yet even as this is true, it's also true that some people would be comfortable in either instance. While others are not comfortable with sex of any kind.

I chose to become comfortable with smoking.

 

[CabinetMaker]

When I was a teenager I tried smoking. It smelled bad. It tasted worse. It made me feel sick.

But I wanted to want to smoke. I freely chose to do it again. I freely decided to develop a taste for smoking.

I eventually came to enjoy smoking. I liked the smell. I liked the taste. I liked the feeling. I smoked throughout high school. I smoked throughout college. I smoked intermittently until age 25.

I then freely chose to quit smoking. I missed the taste. I missed the smell. I missed the feeling.

That was five years ago. Now I no longer miss it.


Could I acquire a taste for it again? Sure. I choose not to cultivate that behavior pattern.

Were there times I didn't want to stop? Of course - a decade probably!
But at an intellectual level, I came to the conclusion, based on reason, that I wanted to want to stop.

We choose which behaviors to reinforce. We choose which behaviors we allow to develop into habits. We choose which tastes to cultivate.

So did you ever contemplate a taste for the same sex or did you always know that you preferred the opposite sex?

 

[PureX]

When I was a teenager I tried smoking. It smelled bad. It tasted worse. It made me feel sick.

But I wanted to want to smoke. I freely chose to do it again. I freely decided to develop a taste for smoking.

I eventually came to enjoy smoking. I liked the smell. I liked the taste. I liked the feeling. I smoked throughout high school. I smoked throughout college. I smoked intermittently until age 25.

I then freely chose to quit smoking. I missed the taste. I missed the smell. I missed the feeling.

That was five years ago. Now I no longer miss it.


Could I acquire a taste for it again? Sure. I choose not to cultivate that behavior pattern.

Were there times I didn't want to stop? Of course - a decade probably!
But at an intellectual level, I came to the conclusion, based on reason, that I wanted to want to stop.

We choose which behaviors to reinforce. We choose which behaviors we allow to develop into habits. We choose which tastes to cultivate.

What about all those people who want to stop smoking but can't? Do you think they're lying to us and themselves when they say they want to stop? But how could that be possible? How could they choose contrary to their own reason and desire and still call it a choice?

 

[PureX]

I chose to become comfortable with smoking.

That does not mean all your choices are conscious, or voluntary. Nor everyone else's.

 

[glassjester]

But how could that be possible? How could they choose contrary to their own reason and desire?

You're saying it like people don't do that all the time.

 

[PureX]

You're saying it like people don't do that all the time.

Thus, proving the INVOLUNTARY nature of many of our "choices".

 

[bybee]

When I was a teenager I tried smoking. It smelled bad. It tasted worse. It made me feel sick.

But I wanted to want to smoke. I freely chose to do it again. I freely decided to develop a taste for smoking.

I eventually came to enjoy smoking. I liked the smell. I liked the taste. I liked the feeling. I smoked throughout high school. I smoked throughout college. I smoked intermittently until age 25.

I then freely chose to quit smoking. I missed the taste. I missed the smell. I missed the feeling.

That was five years ago. Now I no longer miss it.


Could I acquire a taste for it again? Sure. I choose not to cultivate that behavior pattern.

Were there times I didn't want to stop? Of course - a decade probably!
But at an intellectual level, I came to the conclusion, based on reason, that I wanted to want to stop.

We choose which behaviors to reinforce. We choose which behaviors we allow to develop into habits. We choose which tastes to cultivate.

And if we puke involuntarily because something tastes revolting? That does not seem to be a choice to me.

 

[glassjester]

That does not mean all your choices are conscious, or voluntary. Nor everyone else's.

You're right. But over time, I do shape my own habits and tastes.

You can't always choose to want or not want something. This seems to be based on the body.

But you can always choose what you want to want.
This is based in the soul. What informs these choices? Reason - and by extension values and morals that you've chosen to accept.

You choose what bodily urges you want to encourage and discourage in yourself. You choose even what thoughts to allow to persist in your mind, and what thoughts to shoo away. You cultivate your thought patterns and behavior patterns.

And over time, you shape your habits, and ultimately - your wants.

 

[Sancocho]

Not sure I follow the logic here. How do you know it was invented and not rather discovered and/or understood? Everything we know was discovered at some point.

That it is social conditioning is of course possible. But considering the relatively common of occurence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom as well as theories of evolutionary advantages of having, at least male, homosexual relatives (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/ and http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0002282)

There is a lot of money out there to find a homosexual biological source, nonetheless they all have been abject failures after subjecting their "results" to similar rigorous peer review used in other areas. However, given the volatility and sensitivity of the topic few scientists are willing to offer peer review because of the implications of being black balled in the scientific field. I know quite well has this works as I was in a masters program headed for a doctorate program to do research.

Specifically, the first study would pretend to show homosexuals are the product of more virulent mothers therefore insinuating that there must be some type of conection. Nonetheless, the sample size is way to small and any studies like this need to be taken from different countries to offset the bias due to social factors. In other words a big zero.

In the second "study" the relation between the x chromosome and homosexuality yet there is no sample size mentioned. Furthermore, the theory is only valid if evolution is scientific fact, which of course it never has been no ever would be.

 

[glassjester]

And if we puke involuntarily because something tastes revolting? That does not seem to be a choice to me.

I didn't choose to feel nauseous the first time I smoked. But I did choose to smoke again. The second time, it wasn't that I wanted to smoke - I wanted to want to smoke.


This can happen with any habit, good or bad.

Many people say the same about exercise.

 

[bybee]

I didn't choose to feel nauseous the first time I smoked. But I did choose to smoke again. The second time, it wasn't that I wanted to smoke - I wanted to want to smoke.


This can happen with any habit, good or bad.

Many people say the same about exercise.

Nausea has its own physiologic dictates.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You're right. But over time, I do shape my own habits and tastes.

You can't always choose to want or not want something. This seems to be based on the body.

But you can always choose what you want to want.
This is based in the soul. What informs these choices? Reason - and by extension values and morals that you've chosen to accept.

You choose what bodily urges you want to encourage and discourage in yourself. You choose even what thoughts to allow to persist in your mind, and what thoughts to shoo away. You cultivate your thought patterns and behavior patterns.

And over time, you shape your habits, and ultimately - your wants.

No, you can't always choose that. We can choose whether or not we want to surrender to our desires, but we can't always choose what we desire. Try as I might, I just can't find it in me to like a man like I like women. I tried as a test to your assertion that I could, but I can't do it.