Sexual Orientation is not a Choice

[Sancocho]

Look at what Jesus said about looking at a woman with lust. Where do you cross the line from temptation to sin if just thinking about something is a sin?

Good question. We know being tempted is not a sin because Jesus was tempted. At what point does a temptation become sin, when it is embraced? Our conscience should tell us when this point is reached.

 

[glassjester]

Look at what Jesus said about looking at a woman with lust. Where do you cross the line from temptation to sin if just thinking about something is a sin?

At the point when you become aware of your thought and have the opportunity to dismiss it - and you hold onto it instead.

Only intentional activity can be sinful. And thoughts can be intentional.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't think that they warrant a death penalty.

Why do you think God told Moses that same gender sex deserves the death penalty?

If God had only consulted with you before giving His law to Moses, we could have avoided this whole argument about same gender sex, right?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why do you think God told Moses that same gender sex deserves the death penalty?

If God had only consulted with you before giving His law to Moses, we could have avoided this whole argument about same gender sex, right?

You are an Old Covenant "Christian", I am a Christian under the New Covenant. I believe that Jesus completed Mosaic Law and its punishments no longer apply under the New Covenant.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are an Old Covenant "Christian", I am a Christian under the New Covenant. I believe that Jesus completed Mosaic Law and its punishments no longer apply under the New Covenant.

It doesn't matter whether we are New Covenant Christians or not.

God stated very plainly in the Old Covenant that same gender sex was an offense that deserved the death penalty.

Do you have any idea why He would do that?

 

[Sancocho]

It doesn't matter whether we are New Covenant Christians or not.

God stated very plainly in the Old Covenant that same gender sex was an offense that deserved the death penalty.

Do you have any idea why He would do that?

The Jews were God's instrument of justice in Old Testament times. Also, God has always reserved an exceptional wrath for homosexuality. This is because when it is embraced it is detrimental to society because it's very existence is rooted in an arrogant heart. Therefore, as it grows it corrupts society as we are seeing in Europe and the States.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Jews were God's instrument of justice in Old Testament times. Also, God has always reserved an exceptional wrath for homosexuality. This is because when it is embraced it is detrimental to society because it's very existence is rooted in an arrogant heart. Therefore, as it grows it corrupts society as we are seeing in Europe and the States.

Very good.

The spread of homosexuality destroys society.
The death penalty for same gender sex was instituted to protect society from those who would destroy it to satisfy their own lusts.

 

[gcthomas]

The spread of homosexuality destroys society.

Spread?!

How is allowing gays to marry causing the "spread" of homosexuality?

Do you have any information that suggests that it is spreading anywhere? Is the prevalence increasing, or is it just becoming less hidden as the majority stop persecuting them?

Give up the hate GO, and society will be better for it.

 

[glassjester]

Spread?!

How is allowing gays to marry causing the "spread" of homosexuality?

Do you have any information that suggests that it is spreading anywhere? Is the prevalence increasing, or is it just becoming less hidden as the majority stop persecuting them?

Had it "just become less hidden" in ancient Greece?

 

[Quetzal]

Very good.

The spread of homosexuality destroys society.
The death penalty for same gender sex was instituted to protect society from those who would destroy it to satisfy their own lusts.

How has it destroyed society, exactly?

 

[gcthomas]

Had it "just become less hidden" in ancient Greece?

You said it is spreading, not just becoming more visible, but you pass up on the chance to justify yourself.

You said it is destroying society, but only refer to ancient Greece. Do you have anything current?

 

[glassjester]

You said it is spreading, not just becoming more visible, but you pass up on the chance to justify yourself.

You said it is destroying society, but only refer to ancient Greece. Do you have anything current?

I didn't say either of those things.

You are thinking of Genuine Original (look back).


I take a broader view of this. What is spreading? What is destroying society? The dogmatic belief in sexual orientation.

 

[glassjester]

From Against Heterosexuality, by Michael Hannon

First of all, within orientation essentialism, the distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality is a construct that is dishonest about its identity as a construct. These classifications masquerade as natural categories, applicable to all people in all times and places according to the typical objects of their sexual desires (albeit with perhaps a few more options on offer for the more politically correct categorizers). Claiming to be not simply an accidental nineteenth-century invention but a timeless truth about human sexual nature, this framework puts on airs, deceiving those who adopt its labels into believing that such distinctions are worth far more than they really are.

A second reason to doubt whether this schema is one that we Christians should readily use is that its introduction into our sexual discourse has not noticeably increased the virtues—intellectual or moral—of those who employ its concepts. On the contrary, it has bred both intellectual obscurity and moral disarray.

As to the former, orientation essentialism has made ethical philosophy in this realm all but impossible: It has displaced the old marital-procreative principles of chastity without offering any alternative that is not entirely arbitrary. The older teleological view measured morality against man’s rational-animal nature; in the sexual realm, this meant evaluating sex acts by reference to the common good of marriage, which integrated spousal union and the bearing and rearing of children. The newer heteronormative system, on the other hand, cannot account for the wickedness of same-sex sodomy by reference to anything but a conditioned and unprincipled gag reflex, and one which, left unjustified, has weakened considerably over time.

As to the latter result, moral disarray, the orientation takeover has counterproductively shifted our everyday attention from objective purposes to subjective passions. Young people, for instance, now regularly find themselves agonizing over their sexual identity, navel-gazing in an attempt to discern their place in this allegedly natural Venn diagram of orientations. Such obsessions generate far more heat than light, and focus already sexually excited adolescents on discerning extraneous dimensions of their own sexual makeup. This self-searching becomes even more needlessly distressing for those who discern in themselves a “homosexual orientation,” as they adopt an identity distinguished essentially by a set of sexual desires that cannot morally be fulfilled.

Link to full text - http://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality

 

[gcthomas]

I didn't say either of those things.

You are thinking of Genuine Original (look back).

Yes, I was.:up:

I take a broader view of this. What is spreading? What is destroying society? The dogmatic belief in sexual orientation.

Evidence that it is destroying society? What do you mean by 'destroying'?

 

[glassjester]

Yes, I was.:up:

Evidence that it is destroying society? What do you mean by 'destroying'?

Can I take this question to mean that we agree it is spreading?

 

[gcthomas]

Can I take this question to mean that we agree it is spreading?

It is Christian dogma that is opposing the spread of the idea, which is pursued by those rejecting the dogma.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why do you think God told Moses that same gender sex deserves the death penalty?

Because that is how God wanted to keep His people holy.

If God had only consulted with you before giving His law to Moses, we could have avoided this whole argument about same gender sex, right?

No idea why you would come to that conclusion. I have never said that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle for a Christian. If you you don't know Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you have bigger problems than a homosexual lifestyle.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It doesn't matter whether we are New Covenant Christians or not.

God stated very plainly in the Old Covenant that same gender sex was an offense that deserved the death penalty.

Do you have any idea why He would do that?

Jesus changed that when He refused to condemn the woman of adultery. And before you attempt to argue that according to the law He couldn't condemn her I suggest that you go back and study that passage very carefully and answer this question. Who's law were the Pharisees trying to trap Jesus with?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Can I take this question to mean that we agree it is spreading?

It's not spreading. The percentage of the population that is homosexual is between 3% and 7% and is fairly steady at that number. It wont spread past that as people with a heterosexual orientation are not interested in becoming homosexual.

 

[glassjester]

Evidence that it is destroying society? What do you mean by 'destroying'?

I think it is destructive, spiritually and socially, for people to identify themselves by their desires.

Having a "sexual orientation" defines the person. This has all sorts of negative implications - no matter which orientation you identify as.

This idea, that people have an "orientation," has spread rapidly since its invention in the late 1800's. Before then, people simply did not define themselves in terms of sexual desire. Now it's virtually ubiquitous.

Again, this is as destructive to the self-identified "heterosexual" as it is to the supposed "homosexual."



Imagine if we defined our very selves according to any other desire, and it's easy to see how ridiculous the whole idea is. Here's two examples:

Example 1:

What if we have "dietary orientations"?
You'd soon hear, "I'm not a glutton, I'm a cynorexic. I have a God-given, inborn desire to eat more than you. I didn't choose this! I'm entitled to satisfy the desires God gave me!"

Would their appetite not increase due to their habits?
Would they ever even bother to try to change, once they "identify"?
What if all of society decided to protect the rights of the cynorexic "class of people?"
What if it became cultural heresy to even suggest that they chose their "dietary orientation."


Example 2:

What if someone has a "sleep orientation"?
You'd soon hear, "I'm not lazy; I'm a hypersomniac! I have a God-given, inborn desire to lie down and sleep more than you. I didn't choose this! I'm entitled to satisfy the desires God gave me!"

Would they not become lazier and lazier due to their habits?
Would they ever even bother to try to change, once they "identify"?
What if all of society decided to protect the rights of the hypersomniac "class of people"?
What if it became cultural heresy to even suggest that they chose their "sleep orientation."