Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief !

[Clete]

God imprisoned all His Elect, from amongst the jews, and from amongst the gentiles, in order that, He might have mercy on them, that is regenerate them, and give them Faith and Repentance. Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The Calvinist testifies against himself! He doesn't deny that he worships an unjust god, he doubles down and pretends that the bible teaches it!

The bible can be used to argue ANYTHING if you bring your doctrine with you to the reading of it.

No one who understands what b57 understands is anywhere near being saved. Such are worshiping an unjust version of god. The god that Aristotle built practically with his own hands. They worship a god that does NOT exist.

 

[marke]

Nobody said a thing about God making anyone do anything. God has mercy on a unbelieving/unrepentant person, regenerates them, and gives them repentance Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Christ for those whom He died, gives the Spiritual Blessing of repentance to the elect, and that causes them to willingly repent. Its Gods Mercy in operation !

You imply no sinner can be moved to repentance simply on his own after hearing God's word preached to his heart by the Holy Spirit and being convicted of his sins by the Holy Spirit, but God must supernaturally intervene on the sinner's behalf to 'allow' him to repent. Furthermore, your posts imply that God decides who He will 'allow' to repent and His decision does not involve human emotions or will and is irresistable so that nobody who wants to get saved can be saved unless God determines to save him for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with him.

This interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

 

[beloved57]

You imply no sinner can be moved to repentance simply on his own after hearing God's word preached to his heart by the Holy Spirit and being convicted of his sins by the Holy Spirit, but God must supernaturally intervene on the sinner's behalf to 'allow' him to repent. Furthermore, your posts imply that God decides who He will 'allow' to repent and His decision does not involve human emotions or will and is irresistable so that nobody who wants to get saved can be saved unless God determines to save him for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with him.

This interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

Jesus gives repentance because otherwise men cant repent. Thats why He gives it Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats Peter but Paul knew the same thing that God must give repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This shows us man cant do it of himself !

 

[marke]

Jesus gives repentance because otherwise men cant repent. Thats why He gives it Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats Peter but Paul knew the same thing that God must give repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This shows us man cant do it of himself !

God orders all men everywhere to repent. You claim men cannot repent. You are wrong.

 

[Clete]

Jesus gives repentance because otherwise men cant repent. Thats why He gives it Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Thats Peter but Paul knew the same thing that God must give repentance 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This shows us man cant do it of himself !

It shows no such thing!

What your post shows is the danger involved in bringing your doctrine to the text. The bible can quite literally used to justify any odd ball doctrine anyone cares to hold. All one has to do is bring his doctrine colored glasses with him and put them on before starting to read the scripture.

• Catholics used the bible for all kinds of evil things like talking people into paying God money to get people out of purgatory.
• The Inquisition saw its hay-day while is response to the Reformation when it was used to torture thousands of people into "confessing" their heresy.
• Joseph Smith used the bible to help establish the largest cult the world has ever seen.
• The Puritans (Calvinists by the way) murdered innocent women for being witches in Salem Mass.
• Hitler used the bible to justify one of the ugliest reigns of terror the world has ever experienced (using the same arguments as many modern leftists, by the way).
• Jim Jones used the bible to talk 909 people into ritual suicide and....
• You use the bible to teach that God is unjust.

There are, of course, hundreds more that could be added to that list. Everything from the Crusades to the Branch Davidians could be included but of all the myriad of things that could be listed, which is worst? Is it not the one that directly assaults the character of God Himself?

Clete

 

[beloved57]

It shows no such thing!

What your post shows is the danger involved in bringing your doctrine to the text. The bible can quite literally used to justify any odd ball doctrine anyone cares to hold. All one has to do is bring his doctrine colored glasses with him and put them on before starting to read the scripture.

• Catholics used the bible for all kinds of evil things like talking people into paying God money to get people out of purgatory.
• The Inquisition saw its hay-day while is response to the Reformation when it was used to torture thousands of people into "confessing" their heresy.
• Joseph Smith used the bible to help establish the largest cult the world has ever seen.
• The Puritans (Calvinists by the way) murdered innocent women for being witches in Salem Mass.
• Hitler used the bible to justify one of the ugliest reigns of terror the world has ever experienced (using the same arguments as many modern leftists, by the way).
• Jim Jones used the bible to talk 909 people into ritual suicide and....
• You use the bible to teach that God is unjust.

There are, of course, hundreds more that could be added to that list. Everything from the Crusades to the Branch Davidians could be included but of all the myriad of things that could be listed, which is worst? Is it not the one that directly assaults the character of God Himself?

Clete

All I can do is show the scripture of truth, cant make you believe it. God must give repentance, else man cannot recover himself from the snare of the devil.

 

[Derf]

One of the most disappointing things about religion these days, that goes in the name of christianity, and claims to believe in Christ, and what He accomplished on the Cross by suffering and dying for sin, is that it didnt guarantee no ones salvation. Im going to show that scripture declares without a shadow of doubt that Christs death, burial and resurrection saves a person even while they are unbelievers, and enemies. Even then that God himself is reconciled to them.

The first scripture is Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Thats being saved from Gods penalty of sin and received into His favor even while an enemy to God !

For peace was made for Paul, as well as other elect persons by the blood /death of Christ's cross Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

God has no wrath for a rebellious unbelieving sinner for whom Christ died lest His death was to God of no effect, God forbid !

You're on the right track for once, @beloved57. But we aren't saved by the reconciliation; it's by his life, that is, his resurrection.

 

[beloved57]

You're on the right track for once, @beloved57. But we aren't saved by the reconciliation; it's by his life, that is, his resurrection.

Yes they are saved legally from the condemnation of their sins, they are Justified legally. But they arent saved spiritually until the Risen Christ sheds the Spirit upon them to regenerate them, renew them Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Thats being saved by His Life, the Holy Spirit imparts Life, the very resurrection life of Christ

 

[Derf]

Yes they are saved legally from the condemnation of their sins, they are Justified legally. But they arent saved spiritually until the Risen Christ sheds the Spirit upon them to regenerate them, renew them Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Thats being saved by His Life, the Holy Spirit imparts Life, the very resurrection life of Christ

Since there's a two step process, then it's possible for some to be reconciled by His death (first step), but not be saved by his resurrection (second step)?

 

[beloved57]

Since there's a two step process, then it's possible for some to be reconciled by His death (first step), but not be saved by his resurrection (second step)?

Not possible. It tells you that in the verse Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its a promise !

 

[Derf]

Not possible. It tells you that in the verse Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its a promise !

Yes, but as you point out, it applies to "we", but the reconciliation could very easily still be a larger group than that of the "saved", since the salvation is a promise, not something already accomplished.

If it's already accomplished, then there's no need to emphasize the "promise" part, right?

 

[beloved57]

Since there's a two step process, then it's possible for some to be reconciled by His death (first step), but not be saved by his resurrection (second step)?

Not possible. It tells you that in the verse Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its a promise !

Yes, but as you point out, it applies to "we", but the reconciliation could very easily still be a larger group than that of the "saved", since the salvation is a promise, not something already accomplished.

If it's already accomplished, then there's no need to emphasize the "promise" part, right?

It is simple, it applies to them reconciled to God by the death of His Son ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Derf]

Not possible. It tells you that in the verse Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its a promise !

It is simple, it applies to them reconciled to God by the death of His Son ! Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yes, but not necessarily everyone who is reconciled to God is saved by Jesus' life. (That seems strangely similar to what I wrote before, maybe because what you wrote was strangely similar to what you wrote before.)

 

[beloved57]

Yes, but not necessarily everyone who is reconciled to God is saved by Jesus' life. (That seems strangely similar to what I wrote before, maybe because what you wrote was strangely similar to what you wrote before.)

Im going to let it go.

 

[Derf]

Im going to let it go.

No wonder, since you don't have an answer.

 

[Clete]

All I can do is show the scripture of truth, cant make you believe it. God must give repentance, else man cannot recover himself from the snare of the devil.

First of all, if your doctrine were right, it would mean that your god predestined whether I would believe the things you say long before either of us existed. Secondly, and more importantly, you've shown no such thing!

You know that you haven't and what's more is that you do not care. The fact is that quoting nearly random bits of scripture isn't all that you can do. You could decided to respond to what I've actually said but you never do and you never will. You can flippantly blow off what I've said all you want but the fact is that you've got NOTHING! I mean, you mostly don't respond to the challenges put to you because you're lazy but that's almost beside the point because there isn't any possible response you could make that's of any substance because even you know what justice is and what it isn't. Even you know that arbitrarily picking people to save from the very flames that you believe god himself set people on fire with is the exact opposite of what a righteous god would be capable of.

You do not deny that you worship Aristotle's version of god because you believe Aristotle was right and that the plain reading of scripture is false and you do not deny that your god is unjust because you believe him not to be and don't care. Therefore, you worship a god that does not exist.

Here's the truth of the scriptures that you ignore and that cannot be understood to mean anything other than what they plainly state....

Psalm 7:17 I will give thanks to the Lord because of his righteousness;
Psalm 9:16 The Lord is known by his acts of justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.
Psalm 11:7 For the Lord is righteous, he loves justice; the upright will see his face.
Psalm 35:28 My tongue will proclaim your righteousness, your praises all day long.
Psalm 36:6 Your (i.e. God's) righteousness is like the highest mountains, your justice like the great deep.
Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
Psalm 48:10 Like your name, O God, your praise reaches to the ends of the earth; your right hand is filled with righteousness.
Psalm 50:6 And the heavens proclaim his righteousness, for he is a God of justice.
Psalm 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; love and faithfulness go before you.
Job 34:10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.

So, of course, I could have gone on to quote basically half the Old Testament but that more than makes the point which is basically that righteousness and justice are God's core attributes and that any doctrine that perverts either is simply false.

Clete

 

[borntosurf]

Heb 1: 1 - 3 explains

:1 Many ways, also various ways, long ago the God spoke to their fathers

:2 IN THEIR PROPHETS UNTO THESE LAST OF DAYS, OF THESE, HE SPOKE TO THEM IN HIS SON UPON WHOM IS GIVEN HEIR, OF WHOM ALSO THIS IS FOREVER DONE

:3 WHO BEING THE EMANATION / RADIATING OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS CONFIDENCE

did not Saul meet Jesus as he journeyed to Damascus ?

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

We see that Saul was visited by the Lord Jesus whom ( Jesus ) had chosen him ( Saul ) as a predestinated chosen vessel by divine foreknowledge, Saul, upon hearing the voice of Jesus identifying himself by saying,, I am ( Jesus ) - Saul then replied to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. - after being led by the hand to Damascus, completely blind.

In verse :11 while Saul was in Damascus these scriptures tell us directly that - Saul was Praying to God as Saul had already responded to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Spirit, Holy.

:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

may we ask consideration to these factual details of how Saul was converted and how he accepted and complied in obedience and faith, expressing a verbal confession unto the Lord Jesus and spent 3 days blinded and praying to God. - Saul received the baptism of the Spirit, Holy and was baptized in water and went to thereafter preach that Jesus is the Son Of God.

 

[Clete]

Heb 1: 1 - 3 explains

:1 Many ways, also various ways, long ago the God spoke to their fathers

:2 IN THEIR PROPHETS UNTO THESE LAST OF DAYS, OF THESE, HE SPOKE TO THEM IN HIS SON UPON WHOM IS GIVEN HEIR, OF WHOM ALSO THIS IS FOREVER DONE

:3 WHO BEING THE EMANATION / RADIATING OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS CONFIDENCE

did not Saul meet Jesus as he journeyed to Damascus ?

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

We see that Saul was visited by the Lord Jesus whom ( Jesus ) had chosen him ( Saul ) as a predestinated chosen vessel by divine foreknowledge, Saul, upon hearing the voice of Jesus identifying himself by saying,, I am ( Jesus ) - Saul then replied to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. - after being led by the hand to Damascus, completely blind.

In verse :11 while Saul was in Damascus these scriptures tell us directly that - Saul was Praying to God as Saul had already responded to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Spirit, Holy.

:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

may we ask consideration to these factual details of how Saul was converted and how he accepted and complied in obedience and faith, expressing a verbal confession unto the Lord Jesus and spent 3 days blinded and praying to God. - Saul received the baptism of the Spirit, Holy and was baptized in water and went to thereafter preach that Jesus is the Son Of God.

Who or what was this in response to?

And, just as importantly, why is it that people show up here and think that posting in a different font and in a format that can barely be followed is going to be acceptable? Did you copy/paste this post or something?
No one is going to be willing to even bother reading your posts if what you posted here is the way your posts are going to typically appear. In fact, if you persist, I'll fix the problem on my end by ignoring you. Do yourself a favor and stick with the normal font and use the quote feature so that those who you are responding to will get a notification that you've responded to them and so that everyone else will know what you're responding to as well.

Also, you need to probably understand that there isn't any bible verse that teaches predestination in the way Calvin taught it or in the way you present it here. The ONLY reason you think otherwise is because Augustine of Milan imported the belief from Aristotle and Plato into Catholicism back in the 4th century. Your proof-texting doesn't even begin to move the needle. If God is either loving or just, your pagan Greek understanding of predestination is a myth.

 

[Derf]

Heb 1: 1 - 3 explains

:1 Many ways, also various ways, long ago the God spoke to their fathers

:2 IN THEIR PROPHETS UNTO THESE LAST OF DAYS, OF THESE, HE SPOKE TO THEM IN HIS SON UPON WHOM IS GIVEN HEIR, OF WHOM ALSO THIS IS FOREVER DONE

:3 WHO BEING THE EMANATION / RADIATING OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS CONFIDENCE

did not Saul meet Jesus as he journeyed to Damascus ?

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

We see that Saul was visited by the Lord Jesus whom ( Jesus ) had chosen him ( Saul ) as a predestinated chosen vessel by divine foreknowledge, Saul, upon hearing the voice of Jesus identifying himself by saying,, I am ( Jesus ) - Saul then replied to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. - after being led by the hand to Damascus, completely blind.

In verse :11 while Saul was in Damascus these scriptures tell us directly that - Saul was Praying to God as Saul had already responded to Jesus in obedience saying " Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? "

:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Spirit, Holy.

:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

may we ask consideration to these factual details of how Saul was converted and how he accepted and complied in obedience and faith, expressing a verbal confession unto the Lord Jesus and spent 3 days blinded and praying to God. - Saul received the baptism of the Spirit, Holy and was baptized in water and went to thereafter preach that Jesus is the Son Of God.

Are you suggesting that all conversion experiences are to be compared with Saul's? That Jesus appears visibly to everyone who will be redeemed? That Jesus was merely blowing smoke when He said,
"blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed"?

 

[borntosurf]

.
sorry

anyone is free to take some time to read what I posted

it was simply a scriptural layout of factual details of how Saul was converted, how he accepted in obedience and faith with a verbal confession, how he spent 3 days blinded while praying to God and how Saul received the baptism of the Spirit, Holy and was baptized in water and went thereafter preaching that Jesus is the Son Of God.