Calvinists are wrong to think God first designed sinners incapable of turning from sin and then burning them in hell in wrath for refusing to turn from their sin.
Scriptures that show that Christs death saved a person while in unbelief !
- Thread starter beloved57
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I thank God that Jesus also delivered us from sinning.
As it is written..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
beloved57
Well-known member
The fact that God justified the ungodly Rom 4:5 shows that one for whom Christ died is saved from the penalty of their sins, Justified while in unbelief.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Thank God that He made it possible for sinners to have their sins forgiven by coming to Jesus for salvation.
beloved57
Well-known member
God has mercy on some for their unbelief. In Rom 11 its seen that some Gentiles received mercy even in unbelief Rom 11:30-31
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
And some jews who are in unbelief obtain mercy as well:
31 Even so have these[jews] also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Some People from amongest the Gentiles and Jews who are unbelievers, will inspite of it, obtain mercy from God. These are the vessels of mercy Paul speaks of in Rom 9:23-4
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
See unbelief wont stop God from having mercy upon these and regenerate them and give them faith Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Vessels of Mercy can never be condemned for, nor die in unbelief !
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
And some jews who are in unbelief obtain mercy as well:
31 Even so have these[jews] also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Some People from amongest the Gentiles and Jews who are unbelievers, will inspite of it, obtain mercy from God. These are the vessels of mercy Paul speaks of in Rom 9:23-4
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
See unbelief wont stop God from having mercy upon these and regenerate them and give them faith Titus 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Vessels of Mercy can never be condemned for, nor die in unbelief !
It is written..."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)
I am sure glad I received Him, so I could have the power to be reborn of His seed by my baptism into Christ and into His death and burial, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Does God unilaterally justify the wicked for no given reason even though the Bible says He will not justify the wicked?
Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
beloved57
Well-known member
Did you understand that post ? You want to discuss what it said with scripture ?
beloved57
Well-known member
So the elect from amongst the jews and gentiles, for their unbelief, they obtain mercy Rom 11:30-32
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all[elect jew/gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Paul was one of the elect jews who through his unbelief obtained mercy 1 Tim 1:12-13
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
See God could have condemned Paul to hell while unbelief as He Justly does to others Rom 11:20
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So clearly all are not cut off, rejected of God because of their unbelief ! Some obtain mercy instead of Justice !
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all[elect jew/gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Paul was one of the elect jews who through his unbelief obtained mercy 1 Tim 1:12-13
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
See God could have condemned Paul to hell while unbelief as He Justly does to others Rom 11:20
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Jn 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So clearly all are not cut off, rejected of God because of their unbelief ! Some obtain mercy instead of Justice !
No! This was a lie, b57! You don't believe that! (See Post Script at bottom of this post.)
What you believe is NOT that God has mercy on anyone for any sort of reason, whether belief, unbelief, or any other reason whatsoever.
What you believe is that their unbelief was predestined by the same god that has "mercy" on them.
It is, in principle, no different at all than giving praise to the merciful arsonist who set your house on fire but pulled you from the flames while letting members of your family burn.
Clete
P.S. In actuality, calling it a lie, while true, must be clarified by acknowledging that Calvinists compartmentalize nearly everything they say to the point that their brains probably don't permit them to see it when they contradict their own doctrine in this manner. It's a form of psychotic double talk prevalent in many religions, most especially cults like the JWs, Mormons, Scientology, etc, where what they believe on one topic has no bearing on what they believe on another. If and when anyone points out an incongruity, they dismiss it as either being a triviality or, if they can't get away with that, they instantly pull out the "antinomy" / "mystery of the gospel" card and toss it into the bin of things that don't need to be explained.
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B57 does not answer direct questions.
You demonstrate an inability to think outside your box and reasonably discussed biblical interpretations that are not securely locked into your limited understanding of God and the Bible.
Repentant sinners obtain mercy from God. Hard-hearted rebels who reject the truth they are clearly shown by God will be cut off without mercy.
I have been dealing with B57 for more than 10 years on various forums, if I am right about his handle on those other forums.
beloved57
Well-known member
Thats backwards, repentance is the result of God having mercy on a person, until then, man is unbelief. God imprisoned His people in unbelief/disobedience so that He can have mercy on them , unbelief brings mercy Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. So we believe and repent because God had mercy on us !
So some hardhearted sinners receive mercy !
God does not make us repent so we will repent and get saved. That is ridiculous.
beloved57
Well-known member
Nobody said a thing about God making anyone do anything. God has mercy on a unbelieving/unrepentant person, regenerates them, and gives them repentance Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Christ for those whom He died, gives the Spiritual Blessing of repentance to the elect, and that causes them to willingly repent. Its Gods Mercy in operation !
Translation:
God set your house on fire so that He could have an opportunity to come rescue you from the flames. Had He not set your house on fire then maybe He wouldn't have had an opportunity to be so "merciful"! Oh, and by the way, whether your family gets rescued from the fire God set is completely up in the air. It just depends on whether or not God arbitrarily decides to do so or not.
“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)
The fact is that they're far more likely to be God's victim as they are of being "saved". After all, God needs someone to be the victim for all the murderers and thieves He's deploying....
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
NONE OF THAT, of course, has anything to do with the real God! The god of Calvin does not exist. It is just a retooling of the false god worshiped by Aristotle and Plato. The real God created Adam and Eve "very good" and when they chose to rebel, He chose to do something to salvage the situation because doing so, while difficult and expensive, was worth the cost because He really does genuinely love every member of the human race and doesn't want them to spend eternity apart from their Creator but wants to have an ever lasting relationship with them.John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The real God has done the work and offers salvation as a free gift to all who will accept it by faith. God is willing, the question is whether you are...
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 10:9 ...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Meaningless double talk! Again, the Calvinist psychosis where they blindly (or is it blithely) contradict one doctrine in order to state another.
Calvinists do, in fact, believe that every single solitary event that happens, whether done by man, beast or inanimate object, was infallibly decided by, predestined by, and immutably ordained and caused to happen by their immutable stone idol of a god. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE YOU HAVE A FREE WILL! They do not believe that you can choose ANYTHING. There is no such thing as choice! And, if there were, those choices would also have been immutably predestined by their god before time began.
beloved57
Well-known member
God imprisoned all His Elect, from amongst the jews, and from amongst the gentiles, in order that, He might have mercy on them, that is regenerate them, and give them Faith and Repentance. Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.