ECT Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You seem confused between what is tribulation and what is Gods Wrath.

The trib is the time when the dragon and the beast dominate the churches .

Gods wrath follows the first resurrection at the return of Christ to/in the clouds.

Christ does not then return to Heaven.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

LA

They will never dominate the body of Christ, so what are you saying?

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

LA
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You are the one who is confused.
The great tribulation is the 70th week of Dan 9 and has to do with Daniel's people, Israel.

Both Daniel and Rev. give it as 3.5 years.

During the tribulation there is a false church, but not the Body of Christ.

You are wrong there.

The body of Christ is not in the churches at that time, well not for long, but still here. Rev.ch 14.







Right! When the Lord Jesus refers to the abomination as spoken by the prophet Daniel and also refers to a time of trouble that is worse than before or after, then it puts the great tribulation squarely within the parameters of prophecy concerning National Israel and not the Body of Christ/mystery.



There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations.

You have been taught falsehood.

The Saints of God continue on the earth until Christ is revealed to all nations, the resurrection occurs and shortly the vials of wrath begin. (only 30 days of vials).

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

LA
 

disturbo

BANNED
Banned
There is no future great tribulation unless it involves national Israel.

Those who anticipate a future great tribulation and disconnect it from prophecies regarding Daniel's people, Israel, have lifted the event out of its Scriptural context.

The coming tribulation involves the entire planet. The world has become so global that you can't separate Israel from anything else during the tribulation. However, God does deal with Israel differently for many obvious reasons, and Israel is the main point of contention in the last days. One example is East Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock complex. But that doesn't mean that the rest of the world isn't affected or involved in the tribulation.

During the tribulation there is a false church, but not the Body of Christ.

There's no such thing as an end-time false church. And no such thing as an end-time one world religion. Every Church will go through the tribulation.
 

disturbo

BANNED
Banned
You are so full of yourself.

And that is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is removed FIRST. God has reconciled those that believe Him in this dispensation of His grace. Therefore WE are not His enemies, but His ambassadors. Before WAR is commenced, He will recall His ambassadors.


You have that part correct. Now the question is, "when does Christ return to do battle/war"?

Revelation 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Christ removes his own to prevent 'friendly fire.'
 

ZacharyB

Active member
The Saints of God continue on the earth until Christ is revealed to all nations,
the resurrection occurs and shortly the vials of wrath begin. (only 30 days of vials).
I believe Benjamin Baruch's interpretations and revelations from his best friend (Jesus):
the overcoming remnant will be raptured at the last trumpet on the last day,
just before the wrath of God hits.
 

ZacharyB

Active member
Christ removes his own to prevent 'friendly fire.'
Or, He could miraculously protect them (as He has done before).
Benjamin Baruch says many of the remnant will be
safely preserved in the mountains of Petra.
There's this little thing about God's Spirit tellin' them to go there.
Hmmmm, is that possible? lol
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The coming tribulation involves the entire planet. The world has become so global that you can't separate Israel from anything else during the tribulation. However, God does deal with Israel differently for many obvious reasons, and Israel is the main point of contention in the last days. One example is East Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock complex. But that doesn't mean that the rest of the world isn't affected or involved in the tribulation.

Perhaps you overlooked what I said:

There is either no future great tribulation, or there is a great tribulation directly concerned with Israel, the false church and the nations.

Since your understanding of the tribulation involves an 'Israel', then my argument has not been with you. There are many here that think the future tribulation has nothing to do with 'Israel'. In order to believe that, one must lift all prophetic utterances about the future tribulation out of its context.



There's no such thing as an end-time false church. And no such thing as an end-time one world religion. Every Church will go through the tribulation.

There is presently one true church which is Christ's and it is the Body of Christ.
There is a false religious system in the world today and it is growing.
It will continue right on in to the seventieth week.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Both Daniel and Rev. give it as 3.5 years.

The seventieth week is seven years.
The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the seventieth week of Daniel 9.



You are wrong there.

The body of Christ is not in the churches at that time, well not for long, but still here. Rev.ch 14.

No, you are wrong.

Rev 14 is concerned with the preaching of the 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel and those of the nations which respond to their message.

You have been taught falsehood.

No, you have.

The Saints of God continue on the earth until Christ is revealed to all nations, the resurrection occurs and shortly the vials of wrath begin. (only 30 days of vials).

There are OT saints, BOC saints and tribulation saints. They are all saints but they are not the same saints.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


'kindreds' is Grk. 'phule' which means tribes.
'earth' is Grk. 'ge' which means land.

'The tribes of the land shall mourn/wail.'

That verse is referring to the twelve tribes of the land in fulfillment of Zech 12.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
LA

I can only say, "Amen" to scripture quotations.
I cannot say, "Amen" to your interpretation of those scriptures.
 

Livelystone

New member
Over the weekend, I had a friend of mine say to me something very similar to what you have said in your post here.

We basically get along, as we differ in our respective understandings of things, not in our friendship, as neither of us allows that to be the case.

And we are are night and day when it comes to our understanding of Scripture.

I hold to a form of Acts 9 Dispensationalism aka Mid-Acts; whereas he holds to a form of what basically boils down to an Acts 2, Old School Pentecostal, Dispensationalism.

What I've noticed as to our difference in each our understanding of things is that he is very inconsistent in his views.

Every so often, we'll talk about these things.

He'll assert "all Scripture is for us, 2 Tim. 3:16-17" but then attempt to reason away those things I point out that 'do not apply to the Body,' of which there are many, in Scripture.

And round and round we go.

As a result, I've long since given up on the poor guy as to this kind of a thing.

Being that I am greatly fascinated by how perception works in an individual as made obvious by their words and assertions; I just focus on that, and what I might learn from it, about where I perhaps fall short in some of those kinds of things.

Might as well get something of use in some area of life.

So, you just go right ahead, and assert what you have. From me to you, it is your loss.

No offense intended, none taken.

I don't know exactly all the differences between all of the different dispensation adherents but I do know any Christian who does not think all of the Bible needs to be considered for doctrine and for teachings about God and his salvation for them including their resurrection unto their sanctification and fullness of what God is offering everyone, is not only missing the mark but are causing others to do so as well

When you look at the phrase, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"what is it about the word "man' that does not resonate to you as allof mankind, as well what is it about phrase, "but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" does not mean to you and yours that God is saying you need to live by every Word coming from God as found in His Holy Bible?

I would rather you feel hostility towards me than for you and yours to stay on the same path you are on that obviously is rebellion against the commandments of God, and against His Word given to you for your benefit.

That would be a small price for me to pay in comparison to the rewards you would receive if you make the change before it is to late
 
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Livelystone

New member
The seventieth week is seven years.
The great tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years of the seventieth week of Daniel 9.

The prophecy of "70" weeks until the desolations are gone is 70 jubilees since the time the law of the two witnesses of God were given to Daniels people via Moses but since then have lain dead in the streets not being used as God has commanded them that would end all doctrinal strife and put all of God's children on one accord with Him and the truth

The time of 70 jubilees is 3500 years AKA 3 1/2 days since the first Pentecost when the law was given THAT BRINGS US TO NOW......... and when life will enter into the two witnesses who are the foundation of the Law of God for determining the truth of God lifting them up to heaven (caught up in righteousness)

We have entered into a time of both blessings for the blessed and curses for the cursed that I have seen both played out numerous times now. I really would like to see you guys (meaning men and woman) get on the right track starting with the laws for determining clean spiritual food out of all the false doctrines.

I hope it is not to late you guys to turn your faces to God but I know when I went to assemble another book He told me it was to late for that and it was time for the righteous to practice righteousness and for the wicked to be wicked

For sure the trumpet is sounding
 

ZacharyB

Active member
I would rather you feel hostility towards me than for you and yours to stay on
the same path you are on that obviously is rebellion against the commandments of God,
and against His Word given to you for your benefit.
That would be a small price for me to pay in comparison to the rewards you would receive
if you make the change before it is to late
This applies to the majority of believers in the majority of American churches,
concerning a whole lot of erroneous doctrines being taught in
the aforementioned churches to the aforementioned believers!

Personally, I am here teaching what the hireling pastors should be teaching,
but they are asleep in their incredible delusions about OSAS, pre-trib, etc.
I should clarify that it is not only delusion, but many thousands are purposely
in bed with the government to protect their most-precious tax-exempt status.
Yes, this an incredibly-disastrous state-of-the-union address by little 'ole me.
 

Danoh

New member
I don't know exactly all the differences between all of the different dispensation adherents but I do know any Christian who does not think all of the Bible needs to be considered for doctrine and for teachings about God and his salvation for them including their resurrection unto their sanctification and fullness of what God is offering everyone, is not only missing the mark but are causing others to do so as well

When you look at the phrase, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God"
of mankind, as well what is it about phrase, "but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" does not mean to you and yours that God is saying you need to live by every Word coming from God as found in His Holy Bible?

I would rather you feel hostility towards me than for you and yours to stay on the same path you are on that obviously is rebellion against the commandments of God, and against His Word given to you for your benefit.

That would be a small price for me to pay in comparison to the rewards you would receive if you make the change before it is to late

Again, no offense intended; none taken.

That said, consider that your response is the same one I related has been my friend's.

2 Timothy 2 asserts that:

16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

My own understanding of that from it, and other passages, is that it is asserting that because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God," all of it is therefore "profitable."

Not only "for doctrine," or teaching, but "for reproof," or correction of behavior not in line with the teaching, but also, "for correction" of beliefs and or understandings not in line with the teaching.

In short, that to the extent that that is properly carried out, "all Scripture is...for instruction in righteousness:"

For that is why God gave it to begin with - "That the man of God may be perfect," in other words, "throughly furnished unto all good works."

Case in point as to what I'd meant in my prior post that my friend continues to fail to see due to his insistence on seeing things his way:

Parts of the Epistle to the Romans are Doctrine or Teaching.

Following on that; other aspects of Romans are for reproof of behavior that is not in line with said teaching.

While yet other aspects of Romans are for correction of thinking not in line with the teaching Romans has laid out.

All three - Doctrine; Reproof; and Correction, comprise Instruction in Righteousness.

And it is obvious throughout Romans that some things that had been the case in Time Past as to the issue of how faith before God was to be expressed, are Now no longer the case. Example - Romans 3:

19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

In other words, Now we know that what things soever the law had said to them who were under the law, it did so towards the intent that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

In others words, God was doing some things through Israel's own instruction in righteousness - the Law - proving that by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3 continues its instruction in righteousness on these things as follows:

21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Obviously, there has been a change in how one is to approach God by faith; not under the Law, as had been the prior case, But Now, under Grace.

My understanding of that is that it is a Dispensational Distinction (the core issue in Dispensationalism being the issue of Distinctions in Identities as to who, what, when, where, why, and how, (Luke 12:42, Heb. 3:1-6 being two passages that illustrate this principle).

In this, many will assert being "Biblically based" while failing to be Dispensational in their distinctions - applying things in Scripture that are neither for them, nor about them...to themselves.

Another friend of mine is an Adventist; he has yet to understand that one intent of Israel's "instruction in righteousness" - the Law - had been its making them aware, not only of indwelling sin, but of their inability given that they their needed regeneration was yet future: in a coming Messiah.

This was one aspect of why the Lord basically reprimanded Nicodemus, in John 3; as a teacher of Israel's instruction in righteousness to them, he should have know this, but did not.

My point to you in all this is that; assert what you just have all you want to; the above illustrates what I have to believe you well know - that although "all scripture...is for" you, it is not all to you, nor about you.
 

Danoh

New member
70AD was merely one more of Israel's desolations in their disobedience of, and in accordance with, their Covenant with God: the Law, Isaiah 61:4, Daniel 9's prayer.
 

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The prophecy of "70" weeks until the desolations are gone is 70 jubilees since the time the law of the two witnesses of God were given to Daniels people via Moses but since then have lain dead in the streets not being used as God has commanded them that would end all doctrinal strife and put all of God's children on one accord with Him and the truth

The time of 70 jubilees is 3500 years AKA 3 1/2 days since the first Pentecost when the law was given THAT BRINGS US TO NOW......... and when life will enter into the two witnesses who are the foundation of the Law of God for determining the truth of God lifting them up to heaven (caught up in righteousness)

We have entered into a time of both blessings for the blessed and curses for the cursed that I have seen both played out numerous times now. I really would like to see you guys (meaning men and woman) get on the right track starting with the laws for determining clean spiritual food out of all the false doctrines.

I hope it is not to late you guys to turn your faces to God but I know when I went to assemble another book He told me it was to late for that and it was time for the righteous to practice righteousness and for the wicked to be wicked

For sure the trumpet is sounding

That.....is an imposed interpretation on an otherwise very plain meaning Scripture.
You have no justification what so ever to say that 3 1/2 days equals 3500 years. That's one of the wildest interpretations I've heard over the last thirty-six years....like Ellen G. White in hyper-drive.
 
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