Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

glorydaz

Well-known member
I haven’t attacked the Bible or the gospel. I have discredited a false, man-made doctrine about the Bible.

I did update my profile. It is not fake.

I don’t know Sonnet either. I am new to this forum.

There's a saying in the law. When a man lies about one thing, you can discount the rest of his testimony.

You absolutely are attempting to discredit the Bible. You won't even admit it's called Scripture. In fact, you won't even acknowledge the verses given you that prove that very thing.

You don't listen. You ignore what's given and go right back to insisting on your one idiotic point that proves nothing. As if you've given some great truth. You're simply blind to the power of the God's word. That is not the sign of a true believer. It's the sign of a natural man of the flesh relying on his own human understanding.

You have no credibility. Period.
 

2003cobra

New member
There are many "reasonable" people who have no spiritual discernment whatsoever. They fail to understand that the writers of the Gospel were each given a mission to testify what they had been given by the Holy Spirit, and it was totally different than what the others were given. You seem to think that God was in the business of having a bunch of men write a history book, and, by God, they'd better all say the exact same thing. :down:

The documents don’t have to all say the same thing, but if the documents contradict each other then you are on very shaky ground to claim that they are both the inerrant, God-breathed Word of God.

You absolutely are attempting to discredit the Bible.
No, just a false doctrine about the Bible.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I understand your frustration with the scriptural text undermining your tradition of Biblical inerrancy.
:chuckle: If I 'were' frustrated, it wouldn't be over this, it would be because you are slowing down the class with your special needs.
The name calling doesn’t help your case
"Assessment." Get it right.
and if you are trying to make me angry, you may eventually see that shan’t happen.
Nope. There is no point in name-calling. Reread my post. I'm merely saying you are dragging us all through simpleton conversation.
I am here to try to help you and others who have their faith in false doctrine, and I recognize the danger of deifying the Bible as too many do.
Becoming a 'simpleton' is not the answer. Sure, it makes the 'problem' go away, but it is the least of the acadic disciplines to do so. Worse? It attacks the very thing you'd seek to prop up: God Himself. I know you don't see it that way, but 'simpleton' is not the answer and is a poor one to boot. I suggest you rethink your position.
I never suggested that the disciples were simpletons.
Yes. You did. :plain:
That is something you fabricated.
No. I did not.
I will note that the gospel attributed to Matthew is silent as to authorship in the text. Are you unaware of that?
:doh: Another simpleton suggestion AND intimation. :plain: If this is you, you are better in discussion over the phone. Your written work here is frustratingly juvenille. If not you, I 'hope' your phone conversation is better than your written communication. If you, on the phone, you conceded a few important doctrines. It is as if you 'forgot.' :(
So, if you are assuming that I attribute the errors in the gospel called Matthew to the Apostle Matthew himself, you are making a mistake. The gospel called “Matthew” was likely written or edited by those Matthew trained — and that would explain the multiple errors.
:doh: AGAIN making SOMEBODY a simpleton! A guy who get's confused between one and two donkies??? :plain:
Mark was not one of the Apostles. Tradition (including Eusebius) say Mark got his information from Peter.
You must NOT read through a few and pick one that 'seems best' to you. That is simply posturizing and committing. Who ELSE may have this Mark been? :think:
Luke was not one of the Apostles. He clearly states that he interviewed eyewitnesses. By the time he did those interviews, some of the stories had likely been embellished. We will get to a good example if you persist in trying to explain the minor, insignificant errors in the gospels. I reiterate that these errors do not discredit the Bible’s authority or validity; they do destroy the false doctrine of inerrancy.
:doh: Be more informed than this, please.

John was an Apostle.
Do you think anybody here on TOL doesn't know that? Me? :idunno:

And He wrote is gospel later, and it appears that he was aware of the other gospels in circulation. I know of no errors in the gospel of John.
:thumb: It is a start at least.
So you will see me raise no errors from the only gospel clearly written by an Apostle.
So you are suggesting that Apostolic scriptures are inerrant? :idunno: :confused:
Therefore your claim that I think the disciples were simpletons is groundless.
Unless Luke was a disciple? Unless Mark was related to Jesus? Unless Matthew was actually written by Matthew? :think: You are going FAR from Fundamental Evangelical. It'd be helpful to tell folks that before you get into conversations with them, then they can evaluate if they have that much time to spend with you. Such should not be the broad scope of this thread, however. You should start a couple of your own threads.
As to whether I know an error exists, any reasonable, honest person will agree that two documents quoting Jesus from the same event will say them same thing OR at least one has an error.
Ah! :think: Meaning I'm not reasonable, or honest. Gotcha. You have to be 'reasonable' and 'honest' to come to the conclusion (deductively derived, NOT given in scripture). :think:
You are TOO brilliant, 'reasonable' and 'honest' for me! Look out! Here is Mr. "Reasonable." Mr. "Honest." We low-life unreasonable and dishonest folks can't even stand in the presence of Mr. Reasonable and honest! <should I grovel at this point, is this where I face-plant in the mud and grovel?>
Spoiler
As I clearly said: "You DON'T and CANNOT know why there is a difference! ALL you can know is that there IS a difference. Anything else? Beyond the perview of scripture and YOUR stance that it is an error, which you CANNOT KNOW! You CAN'T know that! You have NO (none, nadda) ABILITY to assert it. Why? Because all you KNOW from this scripture comparison is that there is a 'difference.' That is ALL you know! I REALLY hope, especially if this is the second time around, that this sinks in! YOU are making an ASSERTION (it is coming from you, not from the text). The ONLY thing you CAN say about the text, 'reasonably' and 'honestly' (and accurately) is that there is a 'difference' between texts! That's it! There is NOTHING else you CAN say without it being something deduced NOT IN the text.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
The documents don’t have to all say the same thing, but if the documents contradict each other then you are on very shaky ground to claim that they are both the inerrant, God-breathed Word of God.

Nonsense. There is no contradiction. One writer just stresses one point over another.


No, just a false doctrine about the Bible.

The false doctrine is the one you preach.
 

2003cobra

New member
:chuckle: If I 'were' frustrated, it wouldn't be over this, it would be because you are slowing down the class with your special needs.
"Assessment." Get it right.

Nope. There is no point in name-calling. Reread my post. I'm merely saying you are dragging us all through simpleton conversation.

Becoming a 'simpleton' is not the answer. Sure, it makes the 'problem' go away, but it is the least of the acadic disciplines to do so. Worse? It attacks the very thing you'd seek to prop up: God Himself. I know you don't see it that way, but 'simpleton' is not the answer and is a poor one to boot. I suggest you rethink your position.
Yes. You did. :plain:

No. I did not.
:doh: Another simpleton suggestion AND intimation. :plain: If this is you, you are better in discussion over the phone. Your written work here is frustratingly juvenille. If not you, I 'hope' your phone conversation is better than your written communication. If you, on the phone, you conceded a few important doctrines. It is as if you 'forgot.' :(
:doh: AGAIN making SOMEBODY a simpleton! A guy who get's confused between one and two donkies??? :plain:

You must NOT read through a few and pick one that 'seems best' to you. That is simply posturizing and committing. Who ELSE may have this Mark been? :think:

:doh: Be more informed than this, please.


Do you think anybody here on TOL doesn't know that? Me? :idunno:

:thumb: It is a start at least.

So you are suggesting that Apostolic scriptures are inerrant? :idunno: :confused:
Unless Luke was a disciple? Unless Mark was related to Jesus? Unless Matthew was actually written by Matthew? :think: You are going FAR from Fundamental Evangelical. It'd be helpful to tell folks that before you get into conversations with them, then they can evaluate if they have that much time to spend with you. Such should not be the broad scope of this thread, however. You should start a couple of your own threads.
Ah! :think: Meaning I'm not reasonable, or honest. Gotcha. You have to be 'reasonable' and 'honest' to come to the conclusion (deductively derived, NOT given in scripture). :think:
You are TOO brilliant, 'reasonable' and 'honest' for me! Look out! Here is Mr. "Reasonable." Mr. "Honest." We low-life unreasonable and dishonest folks can't even stand in the presence of Mr. Reasonable and honest! <should I grovel at this point, is this where I face-plant in the mud and grovel?>
Spoiler
As I clearly said: "You DON'T and CANNOT know why there is a difference! ALL you can know is that there IS a difference. Anything else? Beyond the perview of scripture and YOUR stance that it is an error, which you CANNOT KNOW! You CAN'T know that! You have NO (none, nadda) ABILITY to assert it. Why? Because all you KNOW from this scripture comparison is that there is a 'difference.' That is ALL you know! I REALLY hope, especially if this is the second time around, that this sinks in! YOU are making an ASSERTION (it is coming from you, not from the text). The ONLY thing you CAN say about the text, 'reasonably' and 'honestly' (and accurately) is that there is a 'difference' between texts! That's it! There is NOTHING else you CAN say without it being something deduced NOT IN the text.
You seem to be avoiding the third error I listed.

It appears you want to highlight a technicality. Ok, Mark and Luke were not members of the set known as the Twelve Apostles. (Perhaps you just misread my post, substituting the word disciples in your mind for the word I actually wrote, Apostles.)

It seems that you think making a mistake makes a person a simpleton. That makes us all simpletons, doesn’t it?

Are you going to continue to avoid the error(s) in the recording of the Words of God from the cloud at the transfiguration?

You wrote:
So you are suggesting that Apostolic scriptures are inerrant?
You read that into my statement that I know of no errors in John’s gospel?
Certainly that kind of stretch exceeds the elastic limit of the truth.

You wrote:
If you, on the phone, you conceded a few important doctrines. It is as if you 'forgot.'

As far as I know, we have never spoken phone. Apparently, you have me confused with someone else.
 

2003cobra

New member
Let’s move to another error, this one from the transfiguration.

What did the Father actually say from the cloud?

Matthew 17:5 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/matthew/17-5.html
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"

Luke 9:35 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/luke/9-35.html
35 Then from the cloud came a voice that said, "This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!"

Mark 9:7 NRS
https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrs/mark/9-7.html
7 Then a cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud there came a voice, "This is my Son, the Beloved; listen to him!"


Three different versions of the real Word of God.

If the texts are the inerrant, God-breathed, Word of God, these would all be the same.

Since they are multiple witnesses of the events written by fallible people, they differ.

Just a reminder. No one has responded as yet.

Note Luke’s differences are especially significant.
 

Lon

Well-known member
You seem to be avoiding the third error I listed.
:mock: "Error"

It appears you want to highlight a technicality. Ok, Mark and Luke were not members of the set known as the Twelve Apostles. (Perhaps you just misread my post, substituting the word disciples in your mind for the word I actually wrote, Apostles.)

It seems that you think making a mistake makes a person a simpleton. That makes us all simpletons, doesn’t it?
Between 1 and 2 donkies (donkeys)? Yes. It makes you, me, they; simpletons actually making incredibly stupid mistakes. When it counts :plain:

Are you going to continue to avoid the error(s) in the recording of the Words of God from the cloud at the transfiguration?
:mock: "Error"

You wrote:
So you are suggesting that Apostolic scriptures are inerrant?
You read that into my statement that I know of no errors in John’s gospel?
Certainly that kind of stretch exceeds the elastic limit of the truth.
:think: You 'seem' to be implying something. I wish you'd just out with it.
If not, easily forgettable and out of mind (not a slam, just a passing glance here is all).
Just a reminder. No one has responded as yet.

Note Luke’s differences are especially significant.
:sigh: Let ME, help YOU: What do you 'think' I might say at this point? If you are anywhere near as intelligent as I actually give you credit for, tell me what I think about this dilemma. Have at it, I'll see if you get me right...
You wrote:
If you, on the phone, you conceded a few important doctrines. It is as if you 'forgot.'

As far as I know, we have never spoken phone. Apparently, you have me confused with someone else.
Thanks for clarifying. From there, my 'hope' was that you are more apt over the telephone than you are on forums.
I'm glad you are unflappable, that 'perhaps' you have some scholastic background. Please employ it to your critical thinking skills. :e4e: -Lon
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Just a reminder. No one has responded as yet.

Note Luke’s differences are especially significant.

Who was Luke addressing? His audience?

There would be no need to have four Gospels if they were all addressed to the same group with the same purpose. :chew:
 

2003cobra

New member
Who was Luke addressing? His audience?

There would be no need to have four Gospels if they were all addressed to the same group with the same purpose. :chew:

You think Luke rewrote the Words of God from the cloud to match his audience?

Surely you jest.
 

2003cobra

New member
:mock: "Error"


Between 1 and 2 donkies (donkeys)? Yes. It makes you, me, they; simpletons actually making incredibly stupid mistakes. When it counts :plain:


:mock: "Error"


:think: You 'seem' to be implying something. I wish you'd just out with it.
If not, easily forgettable and out of mind (not a slam, just a passing glance here is all).

:sigh: Let ME, help YOU: What do you 'think' I might say at this point? If you are anywhere near as intelligent as I actually give you credit for, tell me what I think about this dilemma. Have at it, I'll see if you get me right...

Thanks for clarifying. From there, my 'hope' was that you are more apt over the telephone than you are on forums.
I'm glad you are unflappable, that 'perhaps' you have some scholastic background. Please employ it to your critical thinking skills. :e4e: -Lon

Lon, it seems you have given up on discussing the scriptures and false doctrines about the scriptures, opting instead to take potshots at me.

I encourage you to come back to the topic, specifically the voice from the cloud at the transfiguration. Have you no comment on the differences between the three versions? Some would say there is a fourth version in 2 Peter.

If not you, maybe someone will step up to defend the doctrine of inerrancy.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Lon, it seems you have given up on discussing the scriptures and false doctrines about the scriptures, opting instead to take potshots at me.
You, frankly, are the one spinning this conversation down to absurd levels. You took that as a character attack. Nope, I just don't like repeating what you are suggesting, in the most basic sense, that people are stupid and cannot count to two. That is NOT my conclusion. BTW, this IS on topic. Just because I think it's not worthy of an intelligent conversation, doesn't mean you are being personally attacked. It means I find your side of the conversation to be lacking in academic prowess or credibility. If I 'characterize' your response, it shows that I revile where this is all going. It is frankly going downhill. I don't know what you expect out of TOL, but if it more than ridicule, you are fishing in the wrong pond. This site is not nice to those with deaf ears. So far, I have not been too mean. I've rather said I 'think' your position is juvenile. And that, my friend, is a fact. The responsibility for that, imho, rests on your shoulders alone. You came to a site, with a poor idea, and didn't study enough. All snake oil salesmen are eventually run out of town. Just sayin'.

I encourage you to come back to the topic, specifically the voice from the cloud at the transfiguration. Have you no comment on the differences between the three versions? Some would say there is a fourth version in 2 Peter.
I asked YOU to imagine and think MUCH harder on what you imagined my response would be. I ASKED you to do it for a reason. I've jumped a couple of your inane (imho) hoops. I really don't think this is too much to ask of you. The ONLY other thing I asked of you was that you read and meditate upon Psalm 19. Did you? Is this second request too much for you? :think: Who is treating who poorly and who is treating whom better? :think:

If not you, maybe someone will step up to defend the doctrine of inerrancy.
Here is a thought: ALL OF IT was said? There you go. You couldn't prove there is a mistake with that suggestion alone. A mere 'suggestion' sinks your ship, the SS Erroneous. :wave2: Bye bye ship. EVERY last one of your supposed :mock: "Mistakes" is going to sink the same way. The ONLY thing you CAN assert truthfully, is that there is a difference. Sure. We all see it. After that? YOUR best guess and frankly buck, it ain't good enough. Whether mine is or not doesn't matter. The mere 'appearance' of theory sets your wrong 'assertion' as a guess at best. You are GUESSING your theology. That is NOTHING to build one's faith off of. You can go ahead and do it, and yes, I'll think you a simpleton in your thoughts for it, if you can't grasp something so important. I won't be able to change my opinion. I can soften the blow and leave out words that will hurt, like 'simpleton' but I cannot help but think that. It is all you are conveying at this point. Be brilliant. I'd LOVE to see that. Do more than giving me 'guess' theology with weak foundation. Be brilliant. Please dazzle me. Thanks -Lon
 

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:chuckle: If I 'were' frustrated, it wouldn't be over this, it would be because you are slowing down the class with your special needs.
"Assessment." Get it right.

I have the fellow below the fold, but could not escape seeing the quotes of his views. This is a man who states he has taught Sunday School classes, which explains the dire state of instruction taking place in not a few churches. Sigh.

Sadly, he has swallowed the "synoptic problem" view—along with Bart Ehrman's nonsense—completely and thinks no one is familiar with the issues and the errors of such a view. That he claims the label "Christian" only speaks to a profession of something that he really cannot be certain about, given his many "issues" with contradictions in Scripture. Apparently, the superintendence if God the Holy Spirit could not overcome the errors of the writers of Scripture. His doctrine of inspiration is not orthodox so long as he does not consider the suppression of the penmen's errors to be an active part of it. He will simply never know what is absolute truth and what is mere accommodation. Like the liberal, the canon of reason is required to distinguish where Scripture speaks truth and where it accommodates error.

Thus, we are all forced to be mini-popes, interpreting God's special revelation riddled with inconsistencies.

Apostle in the "traditional" sense, or perhaps better put, in the strict sense, would be that this person was invested with the highest office in the church— Luke used many sources, who were eyewitnesses of what he wrote down. His version of events dovetails perfectly with the witness of men like Matthew and John, who were personally disciples. Mark from ancient times has been recognized as Peter's "interpreter," that Gospel being suffused with the memory especially of Peter; although I am persuaded that Mark (though he was but a young lad during Christ's ministry) most likely did know Jesus himself.

Thus, there were 13 men that we know of who had this office; possibly 14, if one assumes that Judas Iscariot's position as one of the original Twelve Disciples made him an Apostle as well. However, most feel as though the designation "Apostle" belongs to the days of the Resurrection; thus, Paul identifies one mark of his authoritative apostolate as his having seen the risen Lord (cf. 1 Cor. 9:1 and Acts 1:22; 2:32).

The 13 men are, the original Twelve less Judas (so 11); plus Matthias (12) who was appointed according to the Spirit and the word of prophecy, Acts 1:15-26; and Saul/Paul (13), whose special call we know from 3 times recorded in Acts, chs. 9, 22, & 26 (n.b. v. 26); and compare 1 Cor. 15:8; Gal. 1:1,16-17; 2:6; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2 Tim.1:11.

Luke was, I suppose, a Gentile and convert from Asia—although some have suggested he was possibly one of the Seventy Jesus sent out, Lk. 10:1 and forward, but there are no comparable "we" statements in his Gospel, as there are in his Acts, e.g Acts 16:10. Luke, therefore, would not have been a personal witness to the Resurrection.

Luke used many sources, who were eyewitnesses of what he wrote down. His version of events dovetails perfectly with the witness of men like Matthew and John, who were personally disciples. Mark from ancient times has been recognized as Peter's "interpreter," that Gospel being suffused with the memory especially of Peter; although I am persuaded that Mark (though he was but a young man during Christ's ministry) most likely did know Jesus himself.

There's no reason to second-rate Luke—whose Gospel is probably the most "professionally accomplished" of the four—simply because his work relies mainly on primary sources, rather than being (from beginning to end of both volumes) the immediate product of a principal, disciple-source.

Why anyone takes the bait of this man escapes me. Ignore him and he will fade away once it is made clear that his hobby-horse is dead on arrival. :AMR:


AMR
 

2003cobra

New member
Lon writes
I asked YOU to imagine and think MUCH harder on what you imagined my response would be.

No, I am not going to try to guess your response.

If you can’t attempt to provide any explanation for the differences in the texts, perhaps someone else will.

And your insults don’t bother me.

So, I hope you try to explain the differences. If not, I hope someone else does.

Perhaps it is to far down in this thread and needs a fresh start.
 

2003cobra

New member
I have the fellow below the fold, but could not escape seeing the quotes of his views. This is a man who states he has taught Sunday School classes, which explains the dire state of instruction taking place in not a few churches. Sigh.

Sadly, he has swallowed the "synoptic problem" view—along with Bart Ehrman's nonsense—completely and thinks no one is familiar with the issues and the errors of such a view. That he claims the label "Christian" only speaks to a profession of something that he really cannot be certain about, given his many "issues" with contradictions in Scripture. Apparently, the superintendence if God the Holy Spirit could not overcome the errors of the writers of Scripture. His doctrine of inspiration is not orthodox so long as he does not consider the suppression of the penmen's errors to be an active part of it. He will simply never know what is absolute truth and what is mere accommodation. Like the liberal, the canon of reason is required to distinguish where Scripture speaks truth and where it accommodates error.

Thus, we are all forced to be mini-popes, interpreting God's special revelation riddled with inconsistencies.

Apostle in the "traditional" sense, or perhaps better put, in the strict sense, would be that this person was invested with the highest office in the church— Luke used many sources, who were eyewitnesses of what he wrote down. His version of events dovetails perfectly with the witness of men like Matthew and John, who were personally disciples. Mark from ancient times has been recognized as Peter's "interpreter," that Gospel being suffused with the memory especially of Peter; although I am persuaded that Mark (though he was but a young lad during Christ's ministry) most likely did know Jesus himself.

Thus, there were 13 men that we know of who had this office; possibly 14, if one assumes that Judas Iscariot's position as one of the original Twelve Disciples made him an Apostle as well. However, most feel as though the designation "Apostle" belongs to the days of the Resurrection; thus, Paul identifies one mark of his authoritative apostolate as his having seen the risen Lord (cf. 1 Cor. 9:1 and Acts 1:22; 2:32).

The 13 men are, the original Twelve less Judas (so 11); plus Matthias (12) who was appointed according to the Spirit and the word of prophecy, Acts 1:15-26; and Saul/Paul (13), whose special call we know from 3 times recorded in Acts, chs. 9, 22, & 26 (n.b. v. 26); and compare 1 Cor. 15:8; Gal. 1:1,16-17; 2:6; 1 Tim. 1:12; 2 Tim.1:11.

Luke was, I suppose, a Gentile and convert from Asia—although some have suggested he was possibly one of the Seventy Jesus sent out, Lk. 10:1 and forward, but there are no comparable "we" statements in his Gospel, as there are in his Acts, e.g Acts 16:10. Luke, therefore, would not have been a personal witness to the Resurrection.

Luke used many sources, who were eyewitnesses of what he wrote down. His version of events dovetails perfectly with the witness of men like Matthew and John, who were personally disciples. Mark from ancient times has been recognized as Peter's "interpreter," that Gospel being suffused with the memory especially of Peter; although I am persuaded that Mark (though he was but a young man during Christ's ministry) most likely did know Jesus himself.

There's no reason to second-rate Luke—whose Gospel is probably the most "professionally accomplished" of the four—simply because his work relies mainly on primary sources, rather than being (from beginning to end of both volumes) the immediate product of a principal, disciple-source.

Why anyone takes the bait of this man escapes me. Ignore him and he will fade away once it is made clear that his hobby-horse is dead on arrival. :AMR:


AMR

Actually, the term apostle just means one who is sent on a mission, and the New Testament calls people other than 13/14 Apostles. If I recall correctly, there is even one female apostle listed in scripture — a Relative of Paul, I think. I could remember it incorrectly.

But when Lon apparently confused the terms, I switched to specifying the Twelve Apostles.

Sometimes people use the term “apostle of Jesus Christ” as one sent by Jesus Himself.

Do you have no comment on the transfiguration differences?

I do have a special like for Luke, as my 23andme DNA test said we are related on my mother’s side.
 

2003cobra

New member
I disagree. There is just that amount of material which needs to be written.

Much of the material in the synoptic gospels is redundant, and the gospels do appear to have different audiences.

But glory’s position that they edited the words of God spoken from the cloud to tailor it to the different audiences is quite outlandish.
 
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