Saved are you?

[God_Is_Truth]

I disagree with your conclusion.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1 John 2:9

The person who rapes a child, hates a child. It should be a bumper sticker!

Would you claim that what John stated doesn't apply to this dispensation? Sounds like a general principle of salvation to me.

John's statement is in full agreement with mine, that he who lives a sinful lifestyle (one marked with lots of sin) is in darkness. when you hate your brother, it's not a one time mess up. it's a continual thing.

I asked: Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"

What is his lust, but covetousness?

...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

what version is that? i tend to use the NASB and it renders is this way:

for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

So if you're lusting, you're coveting, according to Paul.

whether lusting is coveting is debatable, as they are different commands in the 10 commandments, but regardless, how does that address my point that it's not the devil, but our own sinful flesh?

All sin is of the devil, so the wicked one is certainly touching a child molester while he is in the act of raping.

well instead of addressing my point you've gone and assumed your conclusion is true.

So? Paul did, too. Here's one example:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

So do you think he is telling them to keep that command, or break it?

the fact that he states "as also saith the law" proves he is not quoting the law or using it as the basis. he quotes the law as additional support which means it is not the center of his point. he is not preaching law abidance here. Paul does not preach that we are under law and need to keep it.

Nope. To be under the law would mean that my righteousness depended upon me keeping the letter of the law, which is what the old covenant with was.

put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century Jew, who knew nothing about the apostle Paul. now what do you think the phrase "under the law" would've meant to him?

I stated: Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

again, we have a disagreement on the translation. the nasb renders it thus:

34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning;

"become sober minded" is similar to "awake to righteousness", but also distinctly different. Paul's words here are calling the individual to live as he ought to, in accordance with the righteousness he has.

I don't.

isn't that what you have been implying? or do you hold that one who sins is clearly not saved and never was saved?

I haven't lost my free wil, if that is what you are implying.

it was.

It is impossible for a person in Christ to sin. A person in Christ is saved. There is no sin in Christ.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So if we are in him, and in him is no sin, how can we possibly be sinning while in him? It's just not possible. Thankfully.

do you mean practically sinning? that someone in Christ will never do something that was once deemed sinful? that once they are saved they never again steal, murder, rape, lie, cheat or do anything else sinful?

or do you mean that since we are in Christ we cannot sin because he is our righteousness? that though we do things that previously were called sin, they are not counted against us anymore and therefore we do not sin?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Okay, GIT, I went back and read the verse again. Actually, I read the entire chapter. The entire chapter is about Church conduct. The scripture quoted above is specifically about Church Elders and how they are to be treated and also how Elders are to conduct themselves. "Doing nothing with partiality" stands out to me. An Elder should be above reproach. An Elder should be pure. I do not think the Elder is supposed to get caught up in the sins of new church attendees nor quick to lay hands on a believer to make a new elder. Thought and discernment should come before the Elder taking action on anything.


There is no indication in The Message, KJV, NKJV, NLT, or the NIV that "others" or "person(s)" refers to believers. Usually, the term Elect is used to describe the Believers within the New Testament. I notice that it is not used here. :think:

At any rate, I do not think this scripture is glaring enough to cause me to believe that Christians sin.

sounds good. it was just a verse i thought could be a problem and was curious what you made of it. thanks for taking the time to look and explain it to me :thumb:

 

[SOTK]

sounds good. it was just a verse i thought could be a problem and was curious what you made of it. thanks for taking the time to look and explain it to me :thumb:

Thank you, too. :up:

 

[dRock]

first i would like to note that saying "go and sin no more" does not apply to this dispensation.

now as to your question, i would say "no". i believe that it is impossible for us to stop sinning without the help of God. we are born slaves to sin and therefore need to be freed from it by someone else. to say that God would require us to stop sinning (completely) in order to be saved is inhumane. God would be asking of us the impossible.

now should we continue on in sin, after being saved? God forbid! repentence is a central part of the christian life. but that is quite different from ceasing to sin before being saved.

Very good point, GIT.

 

[elohiym]

:up: Worth repeating.

Okay.

Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still rape children, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer molesters, but saints. Even though Christians still rape children, they do not lose their salvation.

That is what he is essentially saying, Turbo.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though Christians still have homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.

Or like this?

Christians still sleep with their neighbors wife, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer are adulterers, but saints. Even though Christians still sleep with their neighbors wife, they do not lose their salvation.

Yes, that is worth repeating. And whenever I hear it, it still sounds wrong.

 

[elohiym]

Christians still have abortions, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer murderers, but saints. Even though Christians still has an abortion, they do not lose their salvation.

Nope. Just doesn't work for me.

 

[elohiym]

Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.

Reference:

John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

That verse does not support a claim that Christians can continue in sin. If we walk in darkness (sin), we have no eternal life, unless you mean eternity in hell, or something like that.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1 John 1:6

That means if a person continues to sin (walk in darkness), that person is not in Chirst's hand at all (fellowship with him). To know this, according to John, is to know the truth.

 

[Servo]

Okay.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still rape children, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer molesters, but saints. Even though Christians still rape children, they do not lose their salvation.

That is what he is essentially saying, Turbo.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though Christians still have homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.

Or like this?

Christians still sleep with their neighbor's wife, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer are adulterers, but saints. Even though Christians still sleep with their neighbor's wife, they do not lose their salvation.

Yes, that is worth repeating. And whenever I hear it, it still sounds wrong.

To be a sinner, you must meet two conditions:


1) You must have sinned.

AND

2) You must be under the Law.


Christians have met the first condition (we all have), but Christians no longer meet the second condition. Christ paid the price, God made the ultimate sacrifice.


Romans 7:
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 Timothy:

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.


And again, since we are now under grace that does not mean that we should go about sinning because we will no longer be judged by the law. We now have the power and strength to fight against the desire to sin. Not because we want to try and keep the Law, but because we choose to walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[STONE]

Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?
Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?
Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?

 

[Turbo]

Yes. God does not approve of anyone that condones sin. He says to rebuke those who sin before all.

Do you approve of those who practice homosexuality, Turbo...

No. I was under the impression that you did based on many of your past posts. Here are just a few examples:

Anyone born homosexual has the right to love and be loved. They are not selfish and hateful because they want to have a relationship.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560836&postcount=112

Based on my study of the Bible, I believe that the Bible does not state or imply that ALL homsexuality is immoral.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560965&postcount=127

I look forward to when we can test for homosexuality genetically.... You believe that all homosexuality is a sin. The Bible doesn't say that in any verse, and it CANNOT be implied.... Whether you want to accept it or not, some people are born homosexual.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=561363&postcount=133

I'd be happy to learn that your beliefs have changed since you made these posts.

How about after they are saved, can they start sinning again, and still be saved? :think:

Yes. If they are saved, they remain saved.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; Philippians 1:6​

If believers were incapable of behaving immorally, then Paul would not have written to believers to correct their immorality.

Nor would he have instructed them to judge and rebuke those within the church.

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”



Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 1 Timothy 5:19-20​

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Christians still have abortions, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer murderers, but saints. Even though Christians still has an abortion, they do not lose their salvation.

Nope. Just doesn't work for me.

you said earlier you don't believe Christians can ever lose their salvation. so what do you think happens when a Christian has an abortion or muders someone?

 

[Crow]

Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?
Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?
Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?

I think this problem arises from sin being used to describe 2 different things.

1. Sin, as in that which separates us from God

and

2. Sin, as in wicked, immoral, gross, wrong, or unlawful acts.


I agree with and understand the concept of #1. We, as Christians, cannot sin in this sense as we cannot lose our salvation.

On #2, Christians can perform sinful acts with the best of the heathen.

The more I look at this the more I can understand how confusing this would be to someone on the outside looking in--Christians stating that they cannot sin yet we all know Christians commit a rich assortment of that which is commonly referred to as sin. Even Paul refers to Christians committing sinful acts.

Surely there has to be a better way of describing eternal security which doesn't cause such confusion. I think I am going to stick with "you can't lose your salvation because of your sinful acts" over "you can't sin."

I believe that we should strive for clarity of understanding rather than being majorly anal about word choice. We shouldn't make the concept more difficult to grasp than it is.

 

[STONE]

I think this problem arises from sin being used to describe 2 different things.

1. Sin, as in that which separates us from God

and

2. Sin, as in wicked, immoral, gross, wrong, or unlawful acts.


I agree with and understand the concept of #1. We, as Christians, cannot sin in this sense as we cannot lose our salvation.

On #2, Christians can perform sinful acts with the best of the heathen.

The more I look at this the more I can understand how confusing this would be to someone on the outside looking in--Christians stating that they cannot sin yet we all know Christians commit a rich assortment of that which is commonly referred to as sin. Even Paul refers to Christians committing sinful acts.

Surely there has to be a better way of describing eternal security which doesn't cause such confusion. I think I am going to stick with "you can't lose your salvation because of your sinful acts" over "you can't sin."

I believe that we should strive for clarity of understanding rather than being majorly anal about word choice. We shouldn't make the concept more difficult to grasp than it is.

Right. For a real believer growing in maturity of the faith the Father picks him(/her) up after a fall, cleans him up, and places him upon his feet again. He who is of Satan remains in his fallen state for he will not allow God to pick him up or clean him off. He who is not of the Father but pretends is not known intimately of the Father and will eventually walk away willfully.

 

[elohiym]

No. I was under the impression that you did based on many of your past posts. Here are just a few examples:

Well, you certainly know how to get your post responded to first.

I wish I could tell you that I have changed my opinion, but I was still forming my opinion at that time, and I still basically agree with the statements of mine you posted. Perhaps something else I stated made you think I supported unrepentent homosexuality somewhere, as those statements don't support your contention. and I don't recall outright supporting unrepentent homosexuality; and, at this point, it is I that am trying to explain to you why a homosexual has to cease from sin, as in no longer continues sinning, if he claims to be saved.

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Translation: If someone says they are saved, and they still rape children, they are still in darkness (unsaved). This is true for both dispensations.

But let's look at the statements of mine you quoted, so neither of us are misunderstood:

Anyone born homosexual has the right to love and be loved. They are not selfish and hateful because they want to have a relationship.

What is untrue about that statement? Is a homosexual born with a carnal mind? Yes, everyone is. The first cause of homosexuality is the carnal mind; therefore, homosexuality is genetic.

Who does not have the right to love and be loved? Their desire to have a relationship is not selfish or hateful, just misplaced because of the carnal mind.

]Based on my study of the Bible, I believe that the Bible does not state or imply that ALL homsexuality is immoral.

When I see a verse that states two hermaphrodites cannot love each other and have a relationship, I might change my position. Is it good for man to be alone? God says no. I don't want a hermaphrodite to be alone...and that's just one possible situation. I am in full agreement that unrepentent homosexuality is immoral and therefore sin.

Where you and I differ is that I believe he must repent from sin, and NEVER sin again, or he (obviously) hates his brother, and never was really saved; and you appear to believe:

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though a Christian still has homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.

I look forward to when we can test for homosexuality genetically.... You believe that all homosexuality is a sin. The Bible doesn't say that in any verse, and it CANNOT be implied.... Whether you want to accept it or not, some people are born homosexual.

Hermaphrodites, rare or not. Just picture two together in your mind...homo-sexuals; and then there are repentant homosexuals (the kind you are talking about that still have homosexual sex after being saved, right?).

...and...If the carnal mind is genetic, which it is, and the first cause of homosexuality is the carnal mind, which is logical, then homosexuality is genetic. Falsify that if you can. I expect a genetic marker for that reason, as it merely proves the word of God is true.

Some believe that homosexuality is a choice, but if it is, then all sin is, and then a person can choose to stop sinning.Those same people have other beliefs which conflict with ceasing from sin as a saved person, as though they can't choose to stop. We do have a choice: to remain as our old man, continuing to sin, or walk in the spirit, where we cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh (cannot sin).

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (cf. 1 John 3:9) Shall not.

I'd be happy to learn that your beliefs have changed since you made these posts.

That's good, because the dark alternative would be that you hoped I still held those views that I might look less credible.

I'd be happy if you joined me in God's total opposition to sin, which is the work of the devil Jesus came to destroy...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Yes. If they are saved, they remain saved.

While agree those who are saved remain saved. The scriptures prove that someone raping a child may say they are in the light, but they are not saved. That would apply at least to any sin against a person, would it not? See 1 John 2:9.

1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you[/b], and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.​

The verse no way implies that person engaged in sexual immorailty is saved. There were wheat and tares in the church at Corinth, and Paul was pissed they didn't expel the tare. A tare is not [yet] saved. Compare that with what Paul says about sinners in 2 Timothy 3:1-5, and it is clear the sinner is not saved if he continues in sin.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened.​

Exactly! Purge out the sin, that you may be and act like a new creature in Christ, because that is what you are.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. ​

Exactly! That is my point. If someone says they are in the light, they are named a brother; but if they hate their brother, they are actually in darkness. Paul is saying get rid of those people because they refuse to repent having heard the truth, and take God's name in vain by continuing to rape children and call themselves saved. It's disgusting.

But the sinners of the world are ignorant of the truth, and we have the opportunity to help them hear the truth. If they, too, claim to be saved but continue to sin, they should be rebuked (or arrested), and put out of God's house...like Paul taught.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”​

Put away (kick out) the evil person (sinner). That is why the person is called evil. Evil isn't saved.

Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 1 Timothy 5:19-20​

The verse no way proves that a saved person continues to sin, but it does indicate that wheat and tares grow together. Tares aren't saved, and they get thrown into the fire eventually.

Peace, friend.

 

[Charity]

hi elohiym

I think most people are trying to get busy growing in grace here,
Some are void of understanding, some need us to extend grace to them in the hope that their soul may see eternal salvation.
But first they need to understand that whatever the problem is that there is a grace door even for them.
He has said that this will be around us, why fight it?
I guess Rev 22 17
And the spirit of the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
If they dont come thats that.
Can you rest a little ?

charity

 

[elohiym]

hi elohiym

I think most people are trying to get busy growing in grace here,

I believe many are called, but few are chosen (Matt. 22:12), and that Jesus said it would be better to cut off my hand or pluck out my eye than to perish, continuing to sin (Matt. 5:29, et al.)

It appears to me that many of God's sheep were mislead into believing that a Christian continues to sin after they are saved, and they believe that they are growing in grace; but how can one claim to be saved and continue to rape children?

Some are void of understanding, some need us to extend grace to them in the hope that their soul may see eternal salvation.
But first they need to understand that whatever the problem is that there is a grace door even for them.

Yes. I am letting them know about the door, even holding it open for them. Like John the baptist, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John ALL said to stop sinning, and to put out from the church those that refuse to repent.

I hope you believe we have an obligation to rebuke sin where we find it.

He has said that this will be around us, why fight it?

Why fight a desire to rape a child? First, I don't believe someone born again has a desire to rape a child. Second, if a child molester thinks he is saved, it would be better for him to think he would go to hell if he lapsed back to raping, not that he can say he's sorry after he crawls off his victim. I bet they're all very sorry, and I could care less...if they aren't being sorry and stopping sinning.

I guess Rev 22 17
And the spirit of the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Someone athirst, is someone that desperatley wants to stop sinning and change (repent). The water of life is Christ, and there is no sin in Christ.

If they dont come thats that.

Just like fish; but you have to cast your net.

Can you rest a little ?

Me? My Father works, so I work too. The harvest is great, but the laborers are few. If we don't weary from welldoing, we will eventually reap.

 

[elohiym]

Your either in your sins or out of them, he sepertates your sin from you as far as the east is to the west by grace,
charity

Amen, Charity. Amen!

I guessed I misunderstood some of what you were saying in your last post.

 

[elohiym]

I am both.

The choice is sinner or saint, not both. A believer was a sinner, was blind but now he sees.

I have to be, as long as I exist in this earth bound body.

No. You don't have to be your old man, and that is why Jesus went to the cross in the likeness of sinful flesh. You can crucify that old man and stick him in the ground, and walk in the spirit and you will not sin.

Can you separate the actions of one from the other?

Yes. You can cut off your hand or pluck out your eye like Jesus suggested, or you can accept that what I have told you, and given scriptural support for, is true.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

The concept of forgiving sin lends itself easily to abuse.

The Catholic Church is a prime example; but what I preach would eliminate confession, and there would be few, if any, molesting priests in the confessionals. They are not there because of celebacy, but because they believe they can continue sinning and call themselves saved. It's a license to molest.

Nobody said it was going to be easy.

Certainly preaching freedom from sin in Christ is not easy.

 

[Charity]

Hi elihiym
I understand what you are saying ,
Just the free gift of salvation is to all men,all men have it, that they maybe adopted by god
there is then an eternal salvation that we need to work towards
This is by grace alone
Where the spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of god
And IF children then heirs of god , so we suffer with him, that we May be also glorified together
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,waiting for our adopton to witt the redemption of our body
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

charity

 

[elohiym]

Hey Stone. I still want to address some of the posts on the spirit thread, but here I am for now.

Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?

No. Nothing that can be contrued as sinful by God, and that is all I care about.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God‘s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?

No. All things work together for good for believers, so the mistakes are over. We can only know this in faith.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I don't believe a person who is born again will mistakenly rape a child, sleep with their neighbors wife, or become the BTK killer.

Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?

Yes. Weakness of flesh is not a sin, and deliberate rejection of God's will is sin. Weakness of flesh cannot cause sin in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. We are in Christ.

Peace.