Saved are you?

[koban]

I forget - what was the topic?


:spam: ???

 

[STONE]

Hey Stone. I still want to address some of the posts on the spirit thread, but here I am for now.

No. Nothing that can be contrued as sinful by God, and that is all I care about.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God‘s elect? It is God that justifieth.

No. All things work together for good for believers, so the mistakes are over. We can only know this in faith.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I don't believe a person who is born again will mistakenly rape a child, sleep with their neighbors wife, or become the BTK killer.

Yes. Weakness of flesh is not a sin, and deliberate rejection of God's will is sin. Weakness of flesh cannot cause sin in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. We are in Christ.

Peace.

Was it "good" for Peter to side with those of the circumcision in not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel even though God showed Peter His Will?
When Paul says Peter was to be blamed did he mean blamed for "good" things?

 

[elohiym]

Elohiym could you give an example of what you consider weakness of the flesh (which is not a sin)?

I'll give you an example from the Bible...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Galations 2:11-15

Peter was taken in a fault (not sin), and Paul restored him in the spirit of meekness. Paul emphasizes that we (he, peter, and the others) are not sinners.

 

[elohiym]

I see we were thinking about the same verses, Stone. You have my answer.

 

[dRock]

no man, :spam: is my sig...click it.

 

[koban]

Why - it's a whole thread built around :spam:

What a novel idea! :chuckle:

 

[STONE]

I'll give you an example from the Bible...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Galations 2:11-15

Peter was taken in a fault (not sin), and Paul restored him in the spirit of meekness. Paul emphasizes that we (he, peter, and the others) are not sinners.

Yes minds thinking alike (Don't let the metaphysic's guy know about this thread).

Weakness of the flesh specifically is a bit different, but your example shows weakness none the less.
Peter knew better but was weak in confidence tward the truth he knew.
Remember Moses struck the rock and was banned from the promised land after serving God faithfully and knowing Him face to face.
True peter was at fault, but it was also contrary to God's Will given directly to him. How is this example or Moses' not sinful?

 

[elohiym]

Weakness of the flesh specificall is a bit different, but your example shows weakness none the less.
Peter knew better but was weak in confidence of the truth he knew.
Remember Moses struck the rock and was banned from the promised land after serving God faithfully and knowing Him face to face.
True he was at fault, but it was contrary to God's Will given directly to him. How is this example or Moses' not sinful?

Moses did sin. It was not a fault.

Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Dueteronomy 32:51,52

Moses had to make a blood atonement for that sin, and God made an example of Moses to edify Israel.

I see a big difference between what Moses did under a blood covenant that required obedience to the letter of the law, and what Peter did under grace because he didn't want to offend one group of bretheren by remaining with another group of bretheren.

Paul seemed to have no problem blending into different groups that may have not got along with each other...

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


Now, if Peter was attempting the same thing, but screwed up while doing, his motivation could have been love. Why was he eating with the Gentiles in the first place, if he didn't love them? Why did he switch to the Jews, if he didn't love them?

Do you see the difference?

 

[STONE]

Moses did sin. It was not a fault.

Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Dueteronomy 32:51,52

Moses had to make a blood atonement for that sin, and God made an example of Moses to edify Israel.

I see a big difference between what Moses did under a blood covenant that required obedience to the letter of the law, and what Peter did under grace because he didn't want to offend one group of bretheren by remaining with another group of bretheren.

Paul seemed to have no problem blending into different groups that may have not got along with each other...

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


Now, if Peter was attempting the same thing, but screwed up while doing, his motivation could have been love. Why was he eating with the Gentiles in the first place, if he didn't love them? Why did he switch to the Jews, if he didn't love them?

Do you see the difference?

Yes, I believe you are correct.

 

[STONE]

However the scriptures do reveal Peter feared them of the circumcision.
Also, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." "And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
This does not come accross as the spirit of meekness.

 

[elohiym]

However the scriptures do reveal Peter feared them of the circumcision.
Also, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." "And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
This does not come accross as the spirit of meekness.

Paul restored Peter in the spirit of meekness. Paul was being meek, not Peter.

Nothing in those verses uses the word sin, or even describes an act you can label as sin according to the law. Moses actions were a clear sin, as God called his actions a trespass.

Shouldn't we focus on verses like "whoever sins is a servant of sin" and "whoever sins is of the devil." How do explain those verses? How can somone sin and not be a servant of sin? How can someone sin and not be of the devil? What does "go and sin no more" mean? What does "awake to righteousness and sin not" mean? What does it mean to arm yourself woth the mind of Christ and "cease from sin" mean?

I have provided dozens of verses now to support my position, yet none of those verses have been refuted by anyone. Most have simply been ignored (I'm not saying you are ignoring them, but others have). Any thoughts on the verses I have offered.

My time is getting short here, as I have other responsibilities, as much as I am enjoying sharing the word with friends.

Peace

 

[STONE]

Further...
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Was this carnality sin? Is not pride also sin?
How is it that this man if he were sinning (and hence never was saved as you said) would be saved?

 

[Charity]

Hi elohiym
The bottom line seems to be that you may think you have salvation by strengthening the flesh to deal with the flesh,
all of us have fallen short of deserving his grace, and if you think you are worthy then you will demand that all others be as you and shape up to standard.
And then you can tell God himself that you didnt need christ to come.

 

[STONE]

Moses actions were a clear sin, as God called his actions a trespass.

I have provided dozens of verses now to support my position, yet none of those verses have been refuted by anyone. Most have simply been ignored (I'm not saying you are ignoring them, but others have). Any thoughts on the verses I have offered.

I have to go also, though I might have some thoughts on the verses you offered. I will get back to you on that.

Yes the Lord said what moses did was a tresspass. Are you aware of which ordinance specifically Moses transgressed?

 

[elohiym]

Hi elohiym
The bottom line seems to be that you may think you have salvation by strengthening the flesh to deal with the flesh,
all of us have fallen short of deserving his grace, and if you think you are worthy then you will demand that all others be as you and shape up to standard.
And then you can tell God himself that you didnt need christ to come.

Could you reword that Charity, as it is confusing to me? It's getting late. Thanks.

 

[elohiym]

I have to go also, though I might have some thoughts on the verses you offered. I will get back to you on that.

Yes the Lord said it was a tresspass. Are you aware which ordinance specifically Moses transgressed?

God said speak to the rock. You can find the statement in the book of the law. God's spoken word operates like law.

 

[elohiym]

Further...
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

The person in question is not saved. He may have been attending the church at Corinth, but he was a tare among the wheat. Like Paul stated to Timothy, turn away from those people. They heard the truth, yet they refused to repent from their sin. Not saved, and never was. The question is always, will they be eventually?

Was this carnality sin? Is not pride also sin?
How is it that this man if he were sinning (and hence never was saved as you said) would be saved?

I think I answered that above. Let me know if it's not clear.

 

[elohiym]

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jesus was making a point about how to stop sinning, and the importance of ceasing from sin by faith. He wants us to "pluck" out the eye that let's us see ourselves as a sinner. If not, he really is telling us to pluck out our eye.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Please let Jesus take away your sin forever right now. If you become blind to Satan's lie that you still sin in Christ, you will have no sin according to Jesus.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Whoever sins is a servant of sin. WHO will YOU serve. Choose today!

 

[koban]

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jesus was making a point about how to stop sinning, and the importance of ceasing from sin by faith. He wants us to "pluck" out the eye that let's us see ourselves as a sinner. If not, he really is telling us to pluck out our eye.

Interesting exegesis.

Do you think there's any signifigance to the fact that he specifies the right eye?

Can I offend myself with my left eye with impunity? :think:

 

[elohiym]

Interesting exegesis.

Do you think there's any signifigance to the fact that he specifies the right eye?

It may be something cultural, like the right eye being considered the "good" eye, the one that is supposed to be able to discern. I'm not syaing that was the actual way they viewed it. Mine was just a made up example.

Obviously both eyes "offended" unless they were already missing an eye, or looked at things with one eye shut. :dizzy: So the choice right eye was on purpose.

Here is another verse that ties into those well...

Isaiah 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?

He wants us to be blind like he was. We are his servant, if we are in Christ. Who is blind like his servant? Are you blind yet?

Can I offend myself with my left eye with impunity? :think:

The evil eye? No way.