Sacrifices

Caino

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:juggle:

Jesus revered the LAW and the PROPHETS, which you do not.

P.S. I have no idea what your post is supposed to mean.

Jesus was upbraiding his enemies for their lack of faith in his Gospel and determined effort to have him killed.

And the prophets called the sacrificial system into question. The priest class that created the profitable system didn't much like that.

We weren't supposed to kill Jesus as a sacrifice and more that Abraham was supposed to break his agreement.
 

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Jesus was upbraiding his enemies for their lack of faith in his Gospel and determined effort to have him killed.
:duh:

And the prophets called the sacrificial system into question. The priest class that created the profitable system didn't much like that.
Please show this in detail... I'm not seeing that from the SINGLE verse that you posted.

We weren't supposed to kill Jesus as a sacrifice and more that Abraham was supposed to break his agreement.
You're confused. They were not trying to kill Him "as a sacrifice", but as a MURDER.
 

Caino

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I'm not confused, I didn't say the Jews were trying to kill Jesus as a sacrifice, they killed him because they didn't like his Gospel message!------>Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires.

You are confused in thinking Jesus was insincere in his first attempt to "go to that which was his own" with his Gospel.

Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
 
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Caino

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The Nazarene Way of Essenic Studies
Christ's Assault on Blood Sacrifice
Denouncing the Sacrificial Slaughter of Animals
Undergirding the theory that it was the cheating moneychangers whom Jesus targeted as the culprits in the system of animal sacrifice, is the claim that the whole process had become "too commercial." This is akin to claiming that the institution of slavery had to be dismantled because it had became too commercial. Although both Temple sacrifices and human slavery had a firm economic foundation, it was the inherent immorality of those systems that brought together the historical forces which finally led to their collapse.

Several hundred years after prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and Hosea had denounced the sacrificial slaughter of animals, Jesus carried out what is euphemistically called the Cleansing of the Temple. It was just before Passover and he disrupted the buying and selling of animals that were being purchased for slaughter. And because Christian scholars and religious leaders continue to ignore biblical denunciations of that bloody worship, they also try to obscure the reason for Christ's assault on the system.

They have done this by focusing on the moneychangers, although they were only minor players in the drama that took place. It was the cult of sacrifice that Jesus tried to dismantle, not the system of monetary exchange. In all three gospel accounts of the event, those who provided the animals for sacrifice are mentioned first: they were the primary focus of Christ's outrage.

The Gospel of John gives the most detailed account of the event.
"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)
Matthew's gospel does not detail the kind of animals that were being sold for slaughter, but it gives the same order of events.
"Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 'It is written,' he said to them, 'My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers.'" (Matthew21:12-13)
The same account is given in the gospel of Mark who, like Matthew, also reports that Jesus accused those at the Temple of making God's house into a "den of robbers." And there is universal acknowledgement that in both gospels, when Jesus said this, he was quoting from the prophet Jeremiah (7:11).

That prophet had hurled the same accusation at the people of his own time, almost six hundred years earlier. He said it while standing at the Temple entrance, after he had already warned the people "do not shed innocent blood in this place." And when Jeremiah said God's house had been turned into a den of robbers it could not have had anything to do with moneychangers--they did not exist in his time.

In the time of Jeremiah, as in the time of Jesus, there was a great distinction made between "robbers" and "thieves." In contemporary times that distinction can best be understood by comparing the crime of petty theft with crimes of armed robbery by those who violently attack/kill their victims. But in ancient Israel there was an even greater distinction. A thief could be anyone who succumbed to a momentary impulse to steal something, but a robber was someone for whom violent crime and killing was a lifestyle.

Both Jesus and Jeremiah were indignant about the violence of sacrificial worship, not the possibility of petty theft by moneychangers. When they said God's house had become a den of "robbers" the Hebrew word that was used (here, transliterated) was "per-eets'" defined as "violent, i.e., a tyrant--destroyer, ravenous, robber." It was the violence of the system, the "robbing of life" from innocent victims in the name of God, that they were condemning. The moneychangers operating in the time of Jesus were driven out of the Temple because they were taking part in the process of sacrificial religion, not because they may have been cheating the pilgrims.

The gospel of Mark correlates Christ's attempt to dismantle the sacrificial system with the plot to kill him. Like Matthew's gospel, Mark's account of the Temple Cleansing starts by saying that Jesus "began driving out those who were buying and selling there." It goes on to relate how he explained to the people why he was doing this, by quoting Jeremiah's opposition to animal sacrifice: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations. But you have made it a 'den of robbers.'" And in the verse of scripture immediately following that statement, Mark reports that "The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings." (Mark 11:18)

It is ridiculous to claim that the religious leaders of Christ's time would have plotted his death because he undermined the function of the moneychangers. Nor would the crowd have been "amazed at his teachings" if Jesus was simply telling them to make sure they were not short-changed when they purchased Temple coins. What the people were amazed at was his condemnation of animal sacrifice; it had been hundreds of years since that kind of condemnation had been heard in Jerusalem. And it would not be tolerated.

A few days after he attacked the cult of animal sacrifice, Jesus was crucified. The religious leaders of his time were determined to preserve the belief that it had been ordained by God, who demanded its continuance.

That determination is echoed in the teachings of contemporary Christian leaders. In spite of Jesus, and in spite of the many biblical denunciations of animal sacrifice, they continue to maintain the ancient fiction that it was God who demanded His creatures be killed and butchered as an act of worship.

It is understandable that in the time of Jesus the religious leaders were committed to upholding the system of Temple sacrifice at all costs: it was the center around which their livelihood depended.

And in biblical times, most people were illiterate and dependant on what their religious leaders taught them concerning the scriptures. But it is not easy to understand why contemporary Christians uphold the validity of the cult of animal sacrifice. In an age of widespread literacy, there is a choice to be made. The bible clearly presents an ongoing conflict between those forces that demanded sacrificial victims in the name of God, and those forces that opposed it as a man-made perversion. And Jesus demonstrated The Way of the Nazoreans.

And because there is a choice to be made, it is deeply disturbing to see Christian leaders joining hands across the centuries with their ancient counterparts, in order to validate a system of worship in which the house of God became a giant slaughterhouse, awash in the blood of its victims.​
 

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I'm not confused, I didn't say the Jews were trying to kill Jesus as a sacrifice, they killed him because they didn't like his Gospel message!------> Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

You are confused in thinking Jesus was insincere in his first attempt to "go to that which was his own" with his Gospel.



50As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation.
I'm not confused... but you are massively confused. You have a different Jesus and not the one described in the Bible. That Jesus revered the LAW and the PROPHETS.
 

Oleander

New member
The Nazarene Way of Essenic Studies
Christ's Assault on Blood Sacrifice
Denouncing the Sacrificial Slaughter of Animals
Undergirding the theory that it was the cheating moneychangers whom Jesus targeted as the culprits in the system of animal sacrifice, is the claim that the whole process had become "too commercial." This is akin to claiming that the institution of slavery had to be dismantled because it had became too commercial. Although both Temple sacrifices and human slavery had a firm economic foundation, it was the inherent immorality of those systems that brought together the historical forces which finally led to their collapse.

Several hundred years after prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and Hosea had denounced the sacrificial slaughter of animals, Jesus carried out what is euphemistically called the Cleansing of the Temple. It was just before Passover and he disrupted the buying and selling of animals that were being purchased for slaughter. And because Christian scholars and religious leaders continue to ignore biblical denunciations of that bloody worship, they also try to obscure the reason for Christ's assault on the system.

They have done this by focusing on the moneychangers, although they were only minor players in the drama that took place. It was the cult of sacrifice that Jesus tried to dismantle, not the system of monetary exchange. In all three gospel accounts of the event, those who provided the animals for sacrifice are mentioned first: they were the primary focus of Christ's outrage.

The Gospel of John gives the most detailed account of the event.
"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the Temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords and drove all from the Temple, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said: 'Get out of here.' (John 2:13-16)
Matthew's gospel does not detail the kind of animals that were being sold for slaughter, but it gives the same order of events.
"Jesus entered the Temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 'It is written,' he said to them, 'My house will be called a house of prayer but you are making it a den of robbers.'" (Matthew21:12-13)
The same account is given in the gospel of Mark who, like Matthew, also reports that Jesus accused those at the Temple of making God's house into a "den of robbers." And there is universal acknowledgement that in both gospels, when Jesus said this, he was quoting from the prophet Jeremiah (7:11).

That prophet had hurled the same accusation at the people of his own time, almost six hundred years earlier. He said it while standing at the Temple entrance, after he had already warned the people "do not shed innocent blood in this place." And when Jeremiah said God's house had been turned into a den of robbers it could not have had anything to do with moneychangers--they did not exist in his time.

In the time of Jeremiah, as in the time of Jesus, there was a great distinction made between "robbers" and "thieves." In contemporary times that distinction can best be understood by comparing the crime of petty theft with crimes of armed robbery by those who violently attack/kill their victims. But in ancient Israel there was an even greater distinction. A thief could be anyone who succumbed to a momentary impulse to steal something, but a robber was someone for whom violent crime and killing was a lifestyle.

Both Jesus and Jeremiah were indignant about the violence of sacrificial worship, not the possibility of petty theft by moneychangers. When they said God's house had become a den of "robbers" the Hebrew word that was used (here, transliterated) was "per-eets'" defined as "violent, i.e., a tyrant--destroyer, ravenous, robber." It was the violence of the system, the "robbing of life" from innocent victims in the name of God, that they were condemning. The moneychangers operating in the time of Jesus were driven out of the Temple because they were taking part in the process of sacrificial religion, not because they may have been cheating the pilgrims.

The gospel of Mark correlates Christ's attempt to dismantle the sacrificial system with the plot to kill him. Like Matthew's gospel, Mark's account of the Temple Cleansing starts by saying that Jesus "began driving out those who were buying and selling there." It goes on to relate how he explained to the people why he was doing this, by quoting Jeremiah's opposition to animal sacrifice: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations. But you have made it a 'den of robbers.'" And in the verse of scripture immediately following that statement, Mark reports that "The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard about this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him because the whole crowd was amazed at his teachings." (Mark 11:18)

It is ridiculous to claim that the religious leaders of Christ's time would have plotted his death because he undermined the function of the moneychangers. Nor would the crowd have been "amazed at his teachings" if Jesus was simply telling them to make sure they were not short-changed when they purchased Temple coins. What the people were amazed at was his condemnation of animal sacrifice; it had been hundreds of years since that kind of condemnation had been heard in Jerusalem. And it would not be tolerated.

A few days after he attacked the cult of animal sacrifice, Jesus was crucified. The religious leaders of his time were determined to preserve the belief that it had been ordained by God, who demanded its continuance.

That determination is echoed in the teachings of contemporary Christian leaders. In spite of Jesus, and in spite of the many biblical denunciations of animal sacrifice, they continue to maintain the ancient fiction that it was God who demanded His creatures be killed and butchered as an act of worship.

It is understandable that in the time of Jesus the religious leaders were committed to upholding the system of Temple sacrifice at all costs: it was the center around which their livelihood depended.

And in biblical times, most people were illiterate and dependant on what their religious leaders taught them concerning the scriptures. But it is not easy to understand why contemporary Christians uphold the validity of the cult of animal sacrifice. In an age of widespread literacy, there is a choice to be made. The bible clearly presents an ongoing conflict between those forces that demanded sacrificial victims in the name of God, and those forces that opposed it as a man-made perversion. And Jesus demonstrated The Way of the Nazoreans.

And because there is a choice to be made, it is deeply disturbing to see Christian leaders joining hands across the centuries with their ancient counterparts, in order to validate a system of worship in which the house of God became a giant slaughterhouse, awash in the blood of its victims.​

Well said. Animal's sacrifices was a man made practice.
As God said in Jeremiah 7:22, He never command such practice. But the teachers of the temple invented this practice to feed themselves and make the living.
It start as we been told in the book of leviticus, when you make unintentional sin, then as penalty you must make offerings to pay for your sin. It's very simple.
 

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Well said. Animal's sacrifices was a man made practice.
As God said in Jeremiah 7:22, He never command such practice. But the teachers of the temple invented this practice to feed themselves and make the living.
It start as we been told in the book of leviticus, when you make unintentional sin, then as penalty you must make offerings to pay for your sin. It's very simple.

You are a great example of quoting scripture and using it OUT OF CONTEXT.

Jeremiah 7:22 does NOT say what YOU say that its says.

Jer 7:22-23 KJV For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: (23) But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

It simply says that the LORD did NOT say that AT A CERTAIN TIME.... He LATER gave those commands in Leviticus, etc.

What the LORD did not do was command them to go after false gods and burn their children.

Jer 7:30-31 KJV For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. (31) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.
 

DAN P

Well-known member
Just because Jesus became aware that his Gospel was going to be rejected by the Jews and that they were going to kill him, doesn't in any way mean that it was his or his Fathers will that they do so!

The cross was an astonishing act of "turning the other cheek".

Hi and by Rom 8:32 who KILLED Jesus ?

Is the FATHER guilty of SIN ?

It reads Who indeed SPARED not His own Son but delivered Him up for us ALL , how will He not also with Him freely give to us THE ALL THINGS !!

Remember ABRAHAM and his SON who he was to sacrifice ?

TYPE OF CHRIST !

dan p
 

Caino

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Hi and by Rom 8:32 who KILLED Jesus ?

Is the FATHER guilty of SIN ?

It reads Who indeed SPARED not His own Son but delivered Him up for us ALL , how will He not also with Him freely give to us THE ALL THINGS !!

Remember ABRAHAM and his SON who he was to sacrifice ?

TYPE OF CHRIST !

dan p

The confusion arises because there are (2) gospels in the NT. Before the cross people heard the Son of God preaching and teaching the "good news" Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven; salvation and justification by living faith alone in the Father, not sacrifices.

The meaning of the cross was misinterpreted after Jesus left.

​​​​​​​
 

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The confusion arises because there are (2) gospels in the NT. Before the cross people heard the Son of God preaching and teaching the "good news" Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven; salvation and justification by living faith alone in the Father, not sacrifices.

The meaning of the cross was misinterpreted after Jesus left.


There are many gospels in the "NT". The gospel of the grace of God is what you need and reject.
 

Caino

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There are many gospels in the "NT". The gospel of the grace of God is what you need and reject.

That simply isn't true. I've received Gods grace, was born again of the spirit 04/28/1985. What I reject is the sick speculation that we were in fact supposed to kill the Son of God as a sacrifice for sins so that God could then forgive us. Jesus didn't teach that.
 
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That simply isn't true. I've received Gods grace, was born again of the spirit 04/28/1985. What I reject is the sick speculation that we were in fact supposed to kill the Son of God as a sacrifice for sins so that God could then forgive us. Jesus didn't teach that.

It's what the Bible teaches. Jesus taught it. You have a different Jesus.

The Bible says that "Christ died for us". You have no clue what that means.

Mat 20:28 KJV Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
That's another verse that is completely beyond your understanding.
 

Caino

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It's what the Bible teaches. Jesus taught it. You have a different Jesus.

The Bible says that "Christ died for us". You have no clue what that means.


That's another verse that is completely beyond your understanding.

I do have a clue what "Christ died for us means", in the Christian religion he was a sinless sacrifice that bore everyone's sins. The atonement theory replaced the original Gospel that forgiveness was based on sincere repentance and in turn forgiving others.
 

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I do have a clue what "Christ died for us means", in the Christian religion he was a scape goat that bore everyone's sins. The atonement theory replaced the original Gospel.
You are simply wrong and a blasphemer. As I've said before, you do NOT belong on a Christian forum.

BTW, the scape goat did not die.
 

Caino

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I'm not confused... but you are massively confused. You have a different Jesus and not the one described in the Bible. That Jesus revered the LAW and the PROPHETS.

Same Jesus, he started a new religion and left the Law and Prophets to Judaism. Its still there, the Jews still practice Judaism. Jesus introduced us to a personal relations to God the Father as faith born children of God.
 

Caino

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You are simply wrong and a blasphemer. As I've said before, you do NOT belong on a Christian forum.

BTW, the scape goat did not die.

This isn't the Christians only part of TOL.

Jesus made the way of salvation more clear. Then came Paul and his compromises with Greek and Roman Pagan ideology. Paul's personal religious beliefs contaminated the original, pre-cross gospel of salvation by faith. It will eventually all get straightened out.
 

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Same Jesus, he started a new religion and left the Law and Prophets to Judaism.
Nonsense

Its still there, the Jews still practice Judaism.
Yes, Peter and the eleven practiced Judaism just like God told them to and Jesus confirmed.

Jesus introduced us to a personal relations to God the Father as faith born children of God.
You just continue to pile confusion on confusion.

Are you confusing the difference between prophecy and mystery? Most likely.
 

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This isn't the Christians only part of TOL.

Jesus made the way of salvation more clear. Then came Paul and his compromises with Greek and Roman Pagan ideology. Paul's personal religious beliefs contaminated the original, pre-cross gospel of salvation by faith. It will eventually all get straightened out.

Of course... you have to throw out the entire Bible so that you can replace it with your UB fairy tale.
 

Caino

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Nonsense


Yes, Peter and the eleven practiced Judaism just like God told them to and Jesus confirmed.


You just continue to pile confusion on confusion.

Are you confusing the difference between prophecy and mystery? Most likely.

Exposing your own confusion. Jesus warned us not to connect the new teaching the the religion that rejected his gospel.

The Patches and the Wineskins
(Mark 2:21–22; Luke 5:36–39)

16 No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. For the patch will pull away from the garment, and a worse tear will result.

17Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will spill, and the wineskins will be ruined. Instead, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.
 

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I feel bad for you... you think that you're a Jew under the law.

Jesus was NOT talking to the body of Christ during His earthly ministry to Israel.
 
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