Romans Chapter 9 and Calvinism

[Brother Ducky]

In actual fact the text states both.

Indeed it does if you are looking at different verses. However, Mr. Pate is arguing that God did not harden Pharoah's heart. The text does clearly state that God did harden Pharoah's heart.

 

[Clete]

That's fun, lets do the same with open theism.
:chuckle:


Open Theist dictionary.

"twins" = two fully formed people groups. For example, when Rebekah gave birth to Jacob and Esau the "twins" cannot possibly refer to two individuals (despite the fact that twins usually means two individuals), it must, of necessity, mean two fully formed and developed nations."

We would not insist that there were two nation in Rebekah's womb except that God Himself clearly says so plain as day.

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”​

"Elect" = Nobody.

Elect refers to any saved person. When a person becomes a believer they are joining God's elect. Pretty simple. Its only in the Calvinist's mind that elect means that someone is chosen arbitrarily without any say in the matter.

"Sovereignty" = Something that belongs to mankind but not to God.

This is just stupidity but for the sake of argument...

Sovereignty in the Open View means what the word sovereignty means in reality. It means the highest authority. It is in the Calvinist mind that the word is changed to mean, "In meticulous control of every event that occurs."

"Salvation" = Something that God participates in but is ultimately accomplished by human will and effort.

Again, not really worth my time but here goes..

Salvation in the Open View means exactly that, salvation! We've been saved because God chose to pay a debt for us that we had no way of paying except in eternal separation from God. A feat only God could have accomplished and one He did not have to accomplish. He chose to do it. Not because we deserved it but because of His own mercy and grace.

"Predestination" = Nothing, nothing at all.

Predestination means to be determined in advance. I'm pretty sure Webster would agree with that.

"Freedom" = a) Something a human has before they come to Christ, after they come, they lose it due to the doctrine of "eternal security."

Many, if not most, of the Open View people I know hold to a modified understanding of the eternal security doctrine. Different enough that it may not actually qualify as eternal security.
In short, I believe that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption and thus our safe delivery to the judgement thrown of Christ is assured because the Holy Spirit has been given as earnest and thus God would have to forfeit His Spirit if we were not brought to the Day of Redemption with our salvation intact. However, once there I do not believe that God would force someone to stay who didn't want to. Why would anyone hate God enough to no longer want to stick around? I don't know, ask Lucifer.

b) Something God has less of that man does when it comes to salvation.

This point doesn't make sense and so I'll just point out that it is the Calvinist god that is eternally static and unchanging and unable to move or to feel an emotion. It is the god of Calvinism that is forced to be a first person witness to every vile act performed in the fagot bar bathrooms. It is the Calvinist god that is forced to personally hold every molecule of excrement together and to push it along its way down the sewer.

"Prophecy" = A really good guess.

A really good prediction. Sometimes more than that but other times not even that. It depends on which kind of prophecy your talking about.

Of course publishing such a text would require an effort equal to, if not greater than reprinting the entire text of Scripture.


:chuckle:

:kookoo:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Dialogos]

We would not insist that there were two nation in Rebekah's womb except that God Himself clearly says so plain as day.

Genesis 25:23 And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”​

And what did God mean when He said that "two nations" were in her womb? Did that mean that on her due date she would give birth to thousands of people, one half of them called Israel and the other called Edom?

Or does it mean that Rebekah would give birth to two babies, one named Jacob and the other named Edom and that both of them would grow and their progeny would become numerous such that two nations would arise from these two individuals.

BTW, its not the first time that God would use this kind of language. God told Abram that He would make Abram a nation.

I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. (Gen 12:2 NKJ)​

Does that mean that God is threatening to annihilate Abram's individual existence and reconstitute his cells as a great nation?

:chuckle:

Or is God saying that God will bless Abram and that he will have many descendants and those descendants will grow so strong and numerous that they will become a great nation?

I'm inclined to think that God means the later.

Its also not the last time that God will use this language.

`Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.' (Deu 9:14 NKJ)​

I'm pretty sure that God isn't threatening to dismember Moses and reconstitute him as thousands of new people. God is offering to provide for the fruitfulness of his progeny such that they grow to become a nation instead of the progeny of Jacob.

Consequently, Paul is talking about Jacob and Esau as individual babies not as national units. That's pretty clear given Paul's argument.

Elect refers to any saved person. When a person becomes a believer they are joining God's elect. Pretty simple.

Pretty simply wrong. Your definition of elect makes mankind the elector and God the elected. Your version of election is nothing more than self-selection and flies in the face of the cumulative biblical usage of "elect" as those chosen by God.

Its only in the Calvinist's mind that elect means that someone is chosen arbitrarily without any say in the matter.

No, its only in your own imagination. Calvinists don't believe that God chooses arbitrarily. That's just a straw man. But, if you like, you can have fun pushing it down. We Calvinists have grown pretty accustomed to watching Open Theists try and refute theological conclusions nobody believes.

Sovereignty in the Open View means what the word sovereignty means in reality. It means the highest authority.

Who has the final say when it comes to salvation in your view, God or man? Does the Creator have the final say in who is and who is not saved, or does the creature?

It is in the Calvinist mind that the word is changed to mean, "In meticulous control of every event that occurs."

As apposed to the notion that God wound up creation like a wind up toy and now sits back and watches it go.

Salvation in the Open View means exactly that, salvation!

Does it really? Or does it mean the potential to be saved? In your view did Jesus die to save sinners or did Jesus die in order to give sinners the option of salvation?

We Calvinists actually think that salvation means being saved from sin and unbelief.

We've been saved because God chose to pay a debt for us that we had no way of paying except in eternal separation from God. A feat only God could have accomplished and one He did not have to accomplish. He chose to do it. Not because we deserved it but because of His own mercy and grace.

No argument here. We just extend mercy and grace all the way to overcoming man's inherent inability to understand and choose God left to our own faculties.

Romans 3:11 actually means something to those of us who hold a reformed view of salvation.

Predestination means to be determined in advance. I'm pretty sure Webster would agree with that.

Great, in advance of what?

Romans 8:29-30 says believes are predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. So we are determined in advance of what?

Many, if not most, of the Open View people I know hold to a modified understanding of the eternal security doctrine. Different enough that it may not actually qualify as eternal security.
In short, I believe that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption and thus our safe delivery to the judgement thrown of Christ is assured because the Holy Spirit has been given as earnest and thus God would have to forfeit His Spirit if we were not brought to the Day of Redemption with our salvation intact. However, once there I do not believe that God would force someone to stay who didn't want to.

Ok, so?

No Calvinist believes that God forces anyone into the new heavens and new earth by gunpoint.

The question is, "where does the 'want to' come from?

How do you get from Romans 3:11 to wanting to be fully conformed into the image of Christ?

Does the Holy Spirit have anything to do with that whatsoever?

Or does the sealing of the Holy Spirit just mean that God puts an external mark on someone but leaves them to their own devices to mature themselves.

Why would anyone hate God enough to no longer want to stick around? I don't know, ask Lucifer.

Don't have to.

Apart from the Holy Spirit, we are all God haters who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

This point doesn't make sense and so I'll just point out that it is the Calvinist god that is eternally static and unchanging and unable to move or to feel an emotion.

Some Calvinists may believe this, I sure don't.

It is the god of Calvinism that is forced to be a first person witness to every vile act performed in the fagot bar bathrooms. It is the Calvinist god that is forced to personally hold every molecule of excrement together and to push it along its way down the sewer.

Nice...



As to your first example, are you claiming that God is ignorant of what happens in the darkest recesses of human depravity? Because, if so, the scriptures flat out prove you wrong.

"(Hebrews 4:13 NKJ) And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. "​

As to your second example, I believe Col 1:16-17 is true, do you?
You can come up with some more distasteful examples if you like but you don't get to claim that some things hold together because of Christ and some things don't and still affirm Col 1:16-17.

A really good prediction. Sometimes more than that but other times not even that. It depends on which kind of prophecy your talking about.

We Calvinists believe that God passes His own test, see Isaiah 41:22-23.

 

[Tambora]

God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[Dialogos]

You don't believe that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous.

Strike one.

I do in fact believe that God is holy, just merciful and righteous.

You believe in the God of Calvinism that is an unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous tyrant that delights in sending people to hell.

Strike two. I believe none of these things.

The real problem for you is that it is not possible for you to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. The God that you describe did not send his only begotten Son into the world to die for the sins of the world, John 3:16.

Strike three.

I fully affirm John 3:16.

You're out Pate.

The God of Calvinism is devisive and cannot be trusted.

Translation: "I don't like Calvinism, it doesn't conform to what I think God must be like, and since God has to conform to what I imagine Him to be, Calvinism must be false."

 

[Robert Pate]

God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

 

[Robert Pate]

Strike one.

I do in fact believe that God is holy, just merciful and righteous.


Strike two. I believe none of these things.


Strike three.

I fully affirm John 3:16.

You're out Pate.



Translation: "I don't like Calvinism, it doesn't conform to what I think God must be like, and since God has to conform to what I imagine Him to be, Calvinism must be false."

The Bible teaches that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous in all that he does.

Since I believe the Bible to be the word of God, I will stick with what the scriptures say about him.

You can keep your unholy, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous God because it is not possible to have faith in him.

You are a liar when you say that you affirm John 3:16.

 

[beloved57]

Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

False testimony ! Isa 6:9-10

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

 

[Dialogos]

The Bible teaches that God is holy, just, merciful and righteous in all that he does.

Amen.

Since I believe the Bible to be the word of God, I will stick with what the scriptures say about him.

Good motive. Would you care to address how or why you contradicted His word twice in your opening post?

You can keep your unholy, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous God because it is not possible to have faith in him.

And here we have the real objection. A God Who is sovereign in salvation is so unpalatable to some that they refuse to have faith in Him because He won't conform to the image of man.

You are a liar when you say that you affirm John 3:16.

2 Cor 13:1 Robert.

Either you produce evidence where I have denied John 3:16 or you owe me a public apology for making a false accusation.

 

[Dialogos]

Because God is holy, just, merciful and righteous he always gives us what we want.

He never would never impose a hard heart or slumber eyes and deaf ears, unless that is what we wanted.

Robert,

Tambora is gently showing you where you err using the scriptures, why do you not allow the Word to correct your misunderstanding?

:idunno:

 

[Robert Pate]

God does harden hearts. And God blinds eyes and deafens ears too.

Romans 11 KJV
(8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

They wanted to be blind and deaf. They wanted their religion.

God only gives light to those who want light, John 3:21.

You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

 

[beloved57]

They wanted to be blind and deaf. They wanted their religion.

God only gives light to those who want light, John 3:21.

You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

Unscriptural comments!

 

[Robert Pate]

Unscriptural comments!

God always gives us what we want.

You want to believe a heretic, so God gives you a heretic to believe in.

Isn't he gracious?

 

[beloved57]

God always gives us what we want.

You want to believe a heretic, so God gives you a heretic to believe in.

Isn't he gracious?

None of your comments are scriptural!

 

[Robert Pate]

None of your comments are scriptural!

Sure they are.

You want to believe a lie, so, God gives you a lie to believe in, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11.

 

[beloved57]

Sure they are.

You want to believe a lie, so, God gives you a lie to believe in, 2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11.

Sure they are not!

 

[Dialogos]

You remain in darkness because you have never come to the light.

Totally out of line, Pate.

Somebody gently points out that you are arguing something the scriptures clearly refutes. Namely, you argued that God never hardened Pharaoh's heart right in the OP...

Romans 9:17-21. God did not harden Pharaohs heart. If God did that he would be unjust. However, God did use this rebel to demonstrate his power to the Israelites. The scripture is refering to the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians. "Who has resisted his will?" All have, we are all sinners. God does not create evil people so that he can vent his wrath on them. "The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are Christ rejecting unbelievers. "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" Yes, God has the power to create evil people. The scripture does not say that he does. If he did that he would not be just.

which is so clearly WRONG that anyone with a third grade reading level and a bible opened to Exodus 4:21 would know it.

:duh:

Instead of graciously accepting good natured correction you cast dispersions on Tambora's salvation, who, BTW, probably agrees more with you on Calvinism vs. Arminianism than she does with me.

Bonehead move Pate.

:doh:

 

[Robert Pate]

Totally out of line, Pate.

Somebody gently points out that you are arguing something the scriptures clearly refutes. Namely, you argued that God never hardened Pharaoh's heart right in the OP...



which is so clearly WRONG that anyone with a third grade reading level and a bible opened to Exodus 4:21 would know it.

:duh:

Instead of graciously accepting good natured correction you cast dispersions on Tambora's salvation, who, BTW, probably agrees more with you on Calvinism vs. Arminianism than she does with me.

Bonehead move Pate.

:doh:

Pharaoh never did believe in God and never wanted to.

His heart was hard long before his encounter with Moses.

He brought judgment on himself because he would not obey God.

If God hardened Pharaohs heart it was because Pharaoh wanted a hard heart. God gave him what he wanted, a hard heart.

But to say that God hardened Pharaohs heart so that he could judge him makes God unjust.

God is not unjust, nor is he unmerciful.

 

[beloved57]

Pharaoh never did believe in God and never wanted to.

His heart was hard long before his encounter with Moses.

He brought judgment on himself because he would not obey God.

If God hardened Pharaohs heart it was because Pharaoh wanted a hard heart. God gave him what he wanted, a hard heart.

But to say that God hardened Pharaohs heart so that he could judge him makes God unjust.

God is not unjust, nor is he unmerciful.

God did deliberately harden pharaohs heart ! Rom 9:17-18!

And you are guilty of calling God unjust!

 

[Robert Pate]

God did deliberately harden pharaohs heart ! Rom 9:17-18!

And you are guilty of calling God unjust!

Your Calvinist God is mean, cruel and devisive.

You believe that he hardens men's hearts so that he can judge them and send them to hell.

Problem is that it is not possible for you to have faith in the God of Calvinism, which means that you are without faith.