REPORT: Judge Rightly

[Clete]

Sure He did.

Are you being serious?

Do you actually believe that the Mosaic Law is arbitrary?

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

Jesus repeatedly taught people to obey the Mosaic Law - all of it - including the rituals, that much is true. But, because of the Dispensation of Grace, which was given to Paul (i.e. it wasn't taught before Paul), we are NOT to follow the Mosaic Law in any respect. The law is for the unbeliever now, not us. If you place yourself under the law (not just for salvation sake but for any reason) Christ will profit you nothing.

You trust Christ for your salvation, why would you rely on the law for your daily walk? Does Paul not tell us explicitly that as we began we are also to continue?

Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
​

Do you see? AS we received Christ, so walk! How did we receive Christ? BY FAITH! Therefore, walk by faith not by the law, for faith does not work by law for then our reward would no longer be of grace but of debt because the law is not of faith but of the flesh, but faith works by love.

Read through Galatians 3 and see the following verses...

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.​

There are, of course, many more but that will do for now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. E4e is a mouth breathing idiot. Please ignore him. The one or two points he gets right, only serve to lend credence to his stupidity, which makes up the bulk of everything he says. He isn't worth your time and effort.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say - I was responding to e4e's claims that no one is subject to any law but societal laws.

Society dictates that abortion is good, homosexuality is right, etc. Those are directly in opposition to God's law.

I was trying to explain that although we are covered by grace, we don't dictate our actions by society - rather by the guidelines God has given us in the Bible - even, yes, using the 10 commandments as a basis to show "fruit" of our Christian walk. I thought I made it clear that I believe we are saved by grace, not by works. Sorry if I didn't post articulately.

 

[Mystery]

Are you being serious?

Do you actually believe that the Mosaic Law is arbitrary?

There was no Law before God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Clete]

Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted?

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.

E4e is a complete idiot and so your response to him is well deserved and appropriate. However, the law is not your standard in Christ. There is no standard in Christ because Christ Himself, in whom you are identified, is the standard. The law does not apply to God. You have been crucified in Christ and the law no longer has any hold on those who have been crucified (i.e. killed) by it. You could no more break the Ten Commandments than you, as an American sitting in New Jersey, could break Australian law. It's against the law in Australia to murder people and if you were to commit murder in New Jersey,( leaving aside New Jersey law for the sake of this argument) then the Australian authorities couldn't do a thing about it because you haven't broken their law. Their law only applies in their country. It is the same with you! If you are in Christ, you are beyond the jurisdiction of the law and are unable to break it.

So what about all those terrible things you do on a regular basis?

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

I have to go get me something to eat! I'll be back later!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

There was no Law before God created the heavens and the earth.

Yes, I know that.

That doesn't mean that God just made it up arbitrarily.

 

[elected4ever]

e4e,

The unbeliever will be judged by the law.

Not the Mosaic Law per se, but the law nevertheless.

Adultery, for example, was wrong before the law said "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
The same is true of murder, stealing, blasphemy, etc. That's why those things made it into the Ten Commandments and then later into the Mosaic Law. It wasn't that God just made some rules up and called it the Mosaic Law, they are based on the very person and character of God Himself and it is therefore the standard by which all will be judged.

You are also wrong about why people go to Hell. Paul explicitly states that without the law, sin is dead and that before the law came he was alive but when the law came sin revived within him and he died. There is no condemnation apart from sin and there is no sin apart from the law (whether it be written on stone or on a person's heart). Thus people go to Hell because of their own sin, not because they were born into some sinful condition that they have no control over.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Like most of my brothers I am instructed out of the law because the law is indeed righteous. Because of the weakness of the flesh the righteousness of the law condemned me and then slew me. I was innocent of sin before the law but it is not the law or sin that caused me to be dead to God. We are born dead to God and because we are dead to God our fate is sealed apart from the law. From Adam to the present it has been by grace through faith that any man is saved. That has never changed. The law never saved anyone and never will. It only proves we cannot be the righteousness of God according to the flesh. To be righteous we must be as God is. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. If we wont to be as God is we must come the way God has provided and be made righteous by God Himself.

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

E4e is a complete idiot and so your response to him is well deserved and appropriate. However, the law is not your standard in Christ. There is no standard in Christ because Christ Himself, in whom you are identified, is the standard. The law does not apply to God. You have been crucified in Christ and the law no longer has any hold on those who have been crucified (i.e. killed) by it. You could no more break the Ten Commandments than you, as an American sitting in New Jersey, could break Australian law. It's against the law in Australia to murder people and if you were to commit murder in New Jersey,( leaving aside New Jersey law for the sake of this argument) then the Australian authorities couldn't do a thing about it because you haven't broken their law. Their law only applies in their country. It is the same with you! If you are in Christ, you are beyond the jurisdiction of the law and are unable to break it.

So what about all those terrible things you do on a regular basis?

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

I have to go get me something to eat! I'll be back later!

Resting in Him,
Clete

OK, Clete, I understand and agree with all of that, I guess I am just not making my point very well. I believe that we are not required to follow the 10 commandments...but we certainly should. Following the example of the righteousness of Jesus, we should use the law to rebuke unsaved people, because they will be judged by the law. We, I know, will not be judged by the law...but that doesn't mean we should sin every which way we can. I believe the law can lead people to Christ. I also believe that once we are saved, trying to follow the law will ruin us.

My only point using the Mosaic law as an example for Christians was that attempting to be like Christ sets us apart from non-believers. That's all. :sigh: It's hard to type when you're really upset

 

[elected4ever]

OK, Clete, I understand and agree with all of that, I guess I am just not making my point very well. I believe that we are not required to follow the 10 commandments...but we certainly should. Following the example of the righteousness of Jesus, we should use the law to rebuke unsaved people, because they will be judged by the law. We, I know, will not be judged by the law...but that doesn't mean we should sin every which way we can. I believe the law can lead people to Christ. I also believe that once we are saved, trying to follow the law will ruin us.

My only point using the Mosaic law as an example for Christians was that attempting to be like Christ sets us apart from non-believers. That's all. :sigh: It's hard to type when you're really upset

No gentile was ever under the law but just as Israel they were still dead to God. It is by grace through faith that we receive life and that life is righteous. There is no possibility of sin. Our flesh remains dead to God but we are not of the flesh but of the spirit. Every time our flesh accuses us of sin or accuses another it lies against the truth. The dead are not subject to the law however in their deadness they are still unrighteous. The law has nothing to do with that. We must receive life if we are to live and that righteousness is in Christ Jesus. We become righteous as Jesus is righteous because we are as he is in this world.

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

No gentile was ever under the law but just as Israel they were still dead to God. It is by grace through faith that we receive life and that life is righteous. There is no possibility of sin. Our flesh remains dead to God but we are not of the flesh but of the spirit. Every time our flesh accuses us of sin or accuses another it lies against the truth. The dead are not subject to the law however in their deadness they are still unrighteous. The law has nothing to do with that. We must receive life if we are to live and that righteousness is in Christ Jesus. We become righteous as Jesus is righteous because we are as he is in this world.

Are you saying that Christians never do anything wrong?

I think that non-Christians can be led to Christ through the law - they need to realize they are sinners to realize they need a Savior.

PS - Thanks for toning it down - the nastiness of your previous post really raised my blood pressure.

 

[DXPose]

Nothing more need be said. If that is what you believe you are yet dead to God. You have no right to claim God's grace as extending to you for salvation. Why? Because you have departed from the grace that has been extended to you. If you live by the law then you are obligated to the whole law. Not just the parts you like. You are making a mockery of Christ completed work on your behalf. What punishment are you worthy of for treading under foot the Son of God? You are a dead person who talks the talk but lives like the dead you condemn.:execute:

So then are we free to throw morality out the window and let grace abound?

 

[DXPose]

Like most of my brothers I am instructed out of the law because the law is indeed righteous. Because of the weakness of the flesh the righteousness of the law condemned me and then slew me. I was innocent of sin before the law but it is not the law or sin that caused me to be dead to God. We are born dead to God and because we are dead to God our fate is sealed apart from the law. From Adam to the present it has been by grace through faith that any man is saved. That has never changed. The law never saved anyone and never will. It only proves we cannot be the righteousness of God according to the flesh. To be righteous we must be as God is. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. If we wont to be as God is we must come the way God has provided and be made righteous by God Himself.

What does this have to do with Christians judging with righteous judgment?

 

[Mystery]

Yes, I know that.

That doesn't mean that God just made it up arbitrarily.

He made it because it was necessary for sinners. If you know that it did not exist before creation, then how can you say it is an expression of His character?

 

[Clete]

OK, Clete, I understand and agree with all of that, I guess I am just not making my point very well. I believe that we are not required to follow the 10 commandments...but we certainly should. Following the example of the righteousness of Jesus, we should use the law to rebuke unsaved people, because they will be judged by the law. We, I know, will not be judged by the law...but that doesn't mean we should sin every which way we can. I believe the law can lead people to Christ. I also believe that once we are saved, trying to follow the law will ruin us.

My only point using the Mosaic law as an example for Christians was that attempting to be like Christ sets us apart from non-believers. That's all. :sigh: It's hard to type when you're really upset

Okay, let me ask you a question to see if we are on the same page here or not...

Should Christian's tithe?

Asked another way, Is a Christian who tithes better off for having done so?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

He made it because it was necessary for sinners. If you know that it did not exist before creation, then how can you say it is an expression of His character?

Because that's what it is. I didn't say it IS His character. His character is the basis of the law. That is to say that the law is what it is because God is who He is.

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Romans 7:12)

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will exalt the law and make it honorable.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

Okay, let me ask you a question to see if we are on the same page here or not...

Should Christian's tithe?

Asked another way, Is a Christian who tithes better off for having done so?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Christians do not have to tithe, but giving out of your heart blesses you and the church. I think we are on the same page if you think that tithing is under the law(10%) and not "required" of Christians.

 

[Clete]

Christians do not have to tithe, but giving out of your heart blesses you and the church. I think we are on the same page if you think that tithing is under the law(10%) and not "required" of Christians.

Christians who tithe are actually worse off than those who give nothing at all.

It still feels like you are attempting to use the law as a tutor, as a guide for life, to know right from wrong. If you are doing so I urge you to think this stuff through because you are doing yourself a great disservice. You do not need the law - at all! You have Christ! What do you need with the law? Does Christ need the law? Certainly not! You are perfect in Christ and cannot be otherwise. If you want to not do wrongly then keep your eye on Christ and on your position in Him and He will live His life through you BY FAITH! Just forget the law! pretend it doesn't exist. What would you do if the law was never written down? Knowing what you know about who God is and who you are in Him, what would you do if you had never heard of the Ten Commandments? If whatever the answer to that question is comes as a result of your love for God, then you've just discovered the secret to living the Christian life. You don't do the things you do for your husband (i.e. you don't love your husband) because there is some standard set of rules that tells you what to do, you just do what you do because you love your husband. It is the same with the Christian life. The Christian does what he does because he loves Christ, not because he has to or because there will be some lack of blessing if you don't. We have already been blessed with all Spiritual blessings in Him, there is nothing we can do to lose that which we did not deserve to be given in the first place.

Okay, I sort of started rambling there. Sorry about that. I don't mean to doubt you. I guess I'm sort of saying all this stuff as much for others who might be reading as I am for you. If you understand all this stuff already then praise God and may God richly bless you and yours! :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

Hmmm... I guess my confusion lies in the fact that I still think the Bible has tons of valuable information as a guide to life. I love my husband, but I've learned from the Bible how to be a better wife. I am perfect in God's eyes, covered by Christ's blood, but I still need direction to know the difference between right and wrong. I am not a legalist, by any means. I truly believe in grace, but I believe we have to be careful not to "continue in sin".

I agree with you on tithing; I think giving money to the church is a good thing, though. It seems like you don't? I agree that submitting to one part of the law will condemn you to the rest, which is not what we as Christians are supposed to do.

I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. I think that the Holy Spirit is our guide to living, but how do we judge right and wrong without the law?

 

[Clete]

Hmmm... I guess my confusion lies in the fact that I still think the Bible has tons of valuable information as a guide to life. I love my husband, but I've learned from the Bible how to be a better wife. I am perfect in God's eyes, covered by Christ's blood, but I still need direction to know the difference between right and wrong. I am not a legalist, by any means. I truly believe in grace, but I believe we have to be careful not to "continue in sin".

I agree with you on tithing; I think giving money to the church is a good thing, though. It seems like you don't? I agree that submitting to one part of the law will condemn you to the rest, which is not what we as Christians are supposed to do.

I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. I think that the Holy Spirit is our guide to living, but how do we judge right and wrong without the law?

First of all, to clarify, I do think it is perfectly good thing to do to support your church financially. I do NOT, however, think that it is a good thing to do it if you are doing so because there is some rule somewhere that says its a good thing to do. If you wouldn't do it if the rule didn't exist then you shouldn't do it at all.

And what is true of tithing is true of all good works. If you wouldn't do them if the rules didn't exist, then you shouldn't do them at all. They will profit you nothing - indeed, they will cost your more than you can imagine.

Consider your husband again. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that it was somehow okay for you to have an affair with another man. Would you do it?

I think I can safely answer that for you with a resounding...

No! Of course not!

The question is WHY?

The answer, of course, is that you wouldn't because you love your husband, right?

Would you need some rule book (i.e. the Ten Commandments) to know that it is hurtful for you to commit adultery against your husband?

You might think so but you don't. You don't need the law, you need God!

That's the choice mankind has always had presented to them;

The law (i.e. the rules) vs. God

The first manifestation of the law was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact, that's what the law is, the knowledge of good and evil, the "knowledge of sin", as Paul puts it. And when Christ nailed the Law to the Tree (the Cross) He undid the curse of the law and restored those who would be identified in His death to life with God. We then have the same choice that Adam had. We can partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (i.e. the law) or we can cling to God. You cannot do both! For the law is of the flesh which is dead to God and cannot have any part with God. The law kills but the Spirit (capital S) gives life.

You ask, "...how do we judge right and wrong without the law?". The answer is, "By the Spirit of the living God, who makes His home inside our hearts."

Sound cryptic I know but it isn't really. It's as simple as knowing who you are in Christ and simply resting on those Scriptural facts. It isn't about trying hard, it isn't about a list of rules, it isn't about doing, its about believing (Romans 4:5). You have died in Christ, it is no longer you who live but Christ who lives through you and in you. Keep you eyes focused on your position in Christ and the rest will come as a result of that faith. God will begin conforming you to the image of Him in whom you rest.

It sounds like magic but it isn't magic, its a miracle.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Prolifeguyswife]

OK, Clete, you get :up: :up: from me! I agree with everything you've posted, and I really appreciate your help in formulating my argument so it's easier to understand. Thanks for being patient while I tried to spit the right words out!

E4E - I still think you were way out of line.

 

[elected4ever]

[/QUOTE]Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted? [/QUOTE]Yes. Everything you said after the first sentence is meaningless.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

If you believe your first sentence then you do believe in a works basted salvation regardless of the trappings you put around it to make it appear that you do not. Your first sentence establishes the context.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

How could Paul sin after he had been made righteous. It was imposable for Paul to continue to sin. Paul was saying it was imposable to continue in sin that grace may abound. What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness. We are made righteous by the father Himself. How could we continue in sin. It is an utter impossibility.

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.

Sin is the contradiction of God in His Person,word and plan. Man has chosen to contradict God in all three areas. For this man was separated from God by God Himself. Death means separation. Death is the judgment of God on man. Man is separated from God and as a mortal man is dead and not subject to the law God. The law only proves that man is dead and makes the sin of man more apparent. As I said Jesus did not condemn the world because the world already stood in condemnation. Jesus came to give life from the dead.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.

I did not misread your first sentence. Maybe you should reconsider your statement. The law is not the standard. God is.