REPORT: Judge Rightly

[Clete]

Er....

Who are you or anyone else to say that there isn't a chance that she isn't in hell 'right now'?

For all you know she may and most likely will have met fundamentalist Christians during her life, it always bemuses me when human beings feel as though they have the ultimate knowledge of another person's life and destiny as though they can judge their heart, and I was under the impression that only God could do so.....

Bob's right.

She's in Hell. At the very least there is no reason to believe otherwise or to even entertain the possibility of the contrary. That is where atheists go, you know. It isn't necessary to have any magic dust or a crystal ball to know that. Nor is it necessary to have "ultimate knowledge of another person's heart" or to "judge their heart"; God has already done that. Pretty much all one needs to do is to read the Bible once, and you'll know God well enough to be able to make such statements about the ultimate destiny of all sorts of people.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[red77]

Bob's right.

She's in Hell. At the very least there is no reason to believe otherwise or to even entertain the possibility of the contrary. That is where atheists go, you know. It isn't necessary to have any magic dust or a crystal ball to know that. Nor is it necessary to have "ultimate knowledge of another person's heart" or to "judge their heart"; God has already done that. Pretty much all one needs to do is to read the Bible once, and you'll know God well enough to be able to make such statements about the ultimate destiny of all sorts of people.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

Bob is wrong to presume as much and so are you, neither of you are God and neither of you know this persons heart, period.

You, and anyone else who presume to dictate the hearts and destinies of others place yourself on the same mantle and knowledge of God, as arrogant as it is compassionless....

Do you know everything about this person from conception through to death? Do you know the events that shaped this persons life, their every thought, their every feeling, their hopes, losses, background, pain, dreams, disappointments, triumphs, tragedies?

If you do then congratulations and my apologies, you are in fact in a position to judge this person as you see fit......

Somehow though I reckon it would only be God who would have this much knowledge about a person, what say you?

:think:

 

[MaryContrary]

Red, what the heck? It really doesn't occur to you that you're maybe arguing so vehemently against something other that the statement in question? It seems a fairly valid assumption to me and I fail to see anything morally questionable in making it. Certainly nothing worth the passion you present here, anyway. I would guess you just find Enyart arrogant, that angers you and you're lashing out. Maybe it's something else, I dunno. :idunno:

 

[red77]

Red, what the heck? It really doesn't occur to you that you're maybe arguing so vehemently against something other that the statement in question? It seems a fairly valid assumption to me and I fail to see anything morally questionable in making it. Certainly nothing worth the passion you present here, anyway. I would guess you just find Enyart arrogant, that angers you and you're lashing out. Maybe it's something else, I dunno. :idunno:

I find anyone arrogant when they make claim to know the outcomes and destinies of other people, and i find it arrogant because it is, It's sickening to see people talk about others as if they're the judge and jury, you might see nothing morally questionable or arrogant in which case you probably don't get it, it's got nothing to do with 'lashing out'..... Bob Enyart, Clete, you and for that matter me do not know the hearts of other people, only God can know that....correct?

 

[chatmaggot]

When it comes to the topic of judging, some Christians often say that other Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers...but it is ok to judge fellow believers (because they are held to the same standards).

Should Christians judge unbelievers?

 

[red77]

When it comes to the topic of judging, some Christians often say that other Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers...but it is ok to judge fellow believers (because they are held to the same standards).

Should Christians judge unbelievers?

Judge them for what? Unbelief?

 

[chatmaggot]

Judge them for what? Unbelief?

For their actions.

Some Christians say that Christians shouldn't judge the actions of non-christians because they aren't held to the same standard. As an analogy (a weak one...but one that was tossed to me in conversation) is an American judge cannot "judge" the actions of someone in Amsterdam for breaking an American law. The American judge would be the Christian believer and the person from Amsterdam would be the unbeliever.

I was told, in an email conversation, that there is "not one ounce of Biblical evidence to support the statement that Christians should judge non-Christians".

I have already written a response but was just curious as to what others thought.

 

[chatmaggot]

It was canceled.

Just out of curiosity, in your lesson for your bible study on this topic how would you have addressed the question about Christians judging non-Christians?

 

[Lighthouse]

Just out of curiosity, in your lesson for your bible study on this topic how would you have addressed the question about Christians judging non-Christians?

Well, when we finally have the Bible study again, I will be leading. And this will be my topic.

And Jesus judged/s all. Why not us?

I know the verses in 1 Corinthians 5. And from how I see it, we certainly judge those who are brothers differently than we judge those who are not. Those who are, we are to disassociate with, when they have crossed certain lines. Those who are not, we are to still go to them. And preach the word. How can we preach the word if we do not judge that they need it? How can we preach the word if we do not judge them, and tell them they are unrighteous and need Christ? We judge their actions, and we judge their hearts.

 

[Rusha]

For their actions.

Some Christians say that Christians shouldn't judge the actions of non-christians because they aren't held to the same standard. As an analogy (a weak one...but one that was tossed to me in conversation) is an American judge cannot "judge" the actions of someone in Amsterdam for breaking an American law. The American judge would be the Christian believer and the person from Amsterdam would be the unbeliever.

I was told, in an email conversation, that there is "not one ounce of Biblical evidence to support the statement that Christians should judge non-Christians".

I have already written a response but was just curious as to what others thought.

I don't mind being judged within the confines of the current and *legitimate* legal system, however, outside of that standard, any judgment made towards me is irrelevent and I treat it as such.

If more ppl lived by the standard of the "golden rule", then necessary judgments would be rarely be needed.

 

[chatmaggot]

Well, when we finally have the Bible study again, I will be leading. And this will be my topic.

And Jesus judged/s all. Why not us?

I know the verses in 1 Corinthians 5. And from how I see it, we certainly judge those who are brothers differently than we judge those who are not. Those who are, we are to disassociate with, when they have crossed certain lines. Those who are not, we are to still go to them. And preach the word. How can we preach the word if we do not judge that they need it? How can we preach the word if we do not judge them, and tell them they are unrighteous and need Christ? We judge their actions, and we judge their hearts.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges.

 

[Lighthouse]

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).

Yes.

 

[MaryContrary]

I find anyone arrogant when they make claim to know the outcomes and destinies of other people, and i find it arrogant because it is, It's sickening to see people talk about others as if they're the judge and jury, you might see nothing morally questionable or arrogant in which case you probably don't get it, it's got nothing to do with 'lashing out'..... Bob Enyart, Clete, you and for that matter me do not know the hearts of other people, only God can know that....correct?

Sure, that's correct. Of course. My point, though, is that it's a reasonable assumption. Even if I were to give you "arrogant" it still would be only tenuously so and hardly worth your reaction. Just saying maybe you should step back and take a look at that. Why does it tick you off to that extent? If I were to make a similar assumption about anything else I doubt it would be an issue for you.
Anyway, take or leave it. I have zero interest in discussing it with you as I've long since learned debating anything with you is an exercise in futility.

 

[Clete]

Bob is wrong to presume as much and so are you, neither of you are God and neither of you know this persons heart, period.

Have you read any of her books?
I have!

And baring some death bed confession, which is less likely than my ever swimming the English channel, she's in Hell!

You, and anyone else who presume to dictate the hearts and destinies of others place yourself on the same mantle and knowledge of God, as arrogant as it is compassionless....

On the contrary. I quoted the Bible and side with God. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of the Living God are condemned already. I have no need to know a thing about their hearts other than that they do not believe. That one bit of knowledge allows me to apply the judgment God Himself has already declared via His word.

And the truth is always compassionate. It might not be nice, but it is loving. It does no one any favors to say anything other than that one of the world's most famous atheists is in Hell.

Do you know everything about this person from conception through to death?

Of course not! It is not necessary to know everything about this person or any other person. I don't pretend to know what her specific punishments will be like in Hell, but simply and only that she is in fact in Hell, in permanent separation from God, as will anyone be who dies without faith in Christ.

Do you know the events that shaped this persons life, their every thought, their every feeling, their hopes, losses, background, pain, dreams, disappointments, triumphs, tragedies?

Do you know anything at all about the Bible or about who God is?

If you do then congratulations and my apologies, you are in fact in a position to judge this person as you see fit......

You are a fool.

You who sit in judgment of me while condemning me for doing the same.

Hypocrite!

Somehow though I reckon it would only be God who would have this much knowledge about a person, what say you?

:think:

I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one.

Amen to that! :up:

 

[cattyfan]

Happy to see this thread. This very topic came up this week at Bible study when a woman said she "wasn't comfortable judging the actions of the person sitting next to her." She's one of the "judge not" crowd, and has much to learn.

We are called on to judge right and wrong everyday. It's called discernment.

 

[red77]

Have you read any of her books?
I have!

And baring some death bed confession, which is less likely than my ever swimming the English channel, she's in Hell!

No, I haven't, I've read some of Dawkins and others, doubtless if Dawkins were to die tonight you'd be saying the same, that you know for sure he's in 'hell'....

On the contrary. I quoted the Bible and side with God. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of the Living God are condemned already. I have no need to know a thing about their hearts other than that they do not believe. That one bit of knowledge allows me to apply the judgment God Himself has already declared via His word.

And the truth is always compassionate. It might not be nice, but it is loving. It does no one any favors to say anything other than that one of the world's most famous atheists is in Hell.

You're the one dictating that you know exactly what these peoples thoughts are up until death, you don't, heck, even the pastor acknowledged this in one of our earlier debates regarding what to say to the family and loved ones of someone who apparently didn't believe before death, you have no idea what the dying thoughts are from someone, only that person and God have that knowledge including with this woman and anyone else...what would you say to the family of this woman? That she's in hell, no two ways about it for sure? Is that the "compassionate truth"?

the truth of the matter is that you don't know her whereabouts, much as you may make claim to to do so,

Of course not! It is not necessary to know everything about this person or any other person. I don't pretend to know what her specific punishments will be like in Hell, but simply and only that she is in fact in Hell, in permanent separation from God, as will anyone be who dies without faith in Christ.

once again you do not "know" at all, you presume to but thats about it....

Do you know anything at all about the Bible or about who God is?

I know enough to know it doesn't say we are to condemn the deceased based on our own presumptions, that there is only one who does the judging that matters....

And this 'do you know the bible at all' tactic is one used by legalists all over the place, it's used by people who would say your own beliefs are in error and it hardly accomplishes much...

I heard this earlier on in my life from people who presumed to know the outcome of other peoples lives when I was at a church I attended at the time, I'd found out that a 15 year old I used to know at school some years earlier had committed suicide, I mentioned this to some at the church and what did they say? He was in hell, no two ways about it.....

Even after explaining that he had lost both of his parents, one of whom to suicide themselves, and that he and his younger brother had been taken into care.....

Were they right Clete?

You are a fool.

You who sit in judgment of me while condemning me for doing the same.

Hypocrite!

If I was "condemning" you then I would indeed be a hypocrite

I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, much as I am to mine, neither are relevant to the question I asked you however.....

 

[red77]

Sure, that's correct. Of course. My point, though, is that it's a reasonable assumption. Even if I were to give you "arrogant" it still would be only tenuously so and hardly worth your reaction. Just saying maybe you should step back and take a look at that. Why does it tick you off to that extent? If I were to make a similar assumption about anything else I doubt it would be an issue for you.
Anyway, take or leave it. I have zero interest in discussing it with you as I've long since learned debating anything with you is an exercise in futility.

Mary, if you'd 'long since learnt' then why did you engage me in discussing this topic? as far as I'm concerned it's more than 'tenously' so, although if you see my above answer to Clete you may understand why it is something that is downright sickening to hear, I heard it firsthand from a bunch of puritans who thought they knew enough to condemn a 15 year old boy based on his suicide, in the words of one: "yes, he's down there sizzling".....

 

[Caille]

Mind you, this is the same crowd that was clamoring for the death of the boy who attacked the girl in the Colorado High School the other day, in direct disobedience to the instructions given in the Bible. It would seem that their powers of discernment need a bit of tweaking before they're ready to be put into practice. As far as whether any specific person is in Hell or not? Anybody who claims to speak definitively regarding this has already identified themselves as unworthy of being taken seriously.

 

[Caille]

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).

Excellent point chatmaggot, and one that seems lost on many who wish to rule over all. Personally, I think the Amish and the Mennonites have it right. They certainly seem less confused than many "religious" people here.