Redskins

rexlunae

New member
In 2002, A fourth-grade teacher in North Carolina was formally reprimanded by the school when an African-American parent was offended by her use of the word (niggardly) in class. A formal letter was placed in the teachers file, accusing her of not being sensitive to the diverse school population and directing her to not use the word again. The student was moved to another class. The teacher was forced to apologize to the parent for teaching her students a perfectly innocent English word with no racial connotations.

A minor incident from 12 years ago? You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

You know, it's lucky for you (well, us) that minority groups don't hold grudges as faithfully as you do. Think of all the things we'd never live down, as a race if they were still blaming us for things on the level of a teacher being unfairly reprimanded once over a misunderstanding.
 

rexlunae

New member
minor? prolly not to the teacher whose job was at stake

Yeah. She had a letter put on her file. I'm sure she was devastated.

and certainly not isolated

Of course it is. Unless you think it's part of a larger conspiracy. An administrator didn't know the word "niggardly", and treated a teacher unfairly as a result. And then Rush Limbaugh got hold of it, and it got blown way out of proportion. It probably wasn't even the worst racial misunderstanding that occurred that day in the US.

i noticed you dodged the question i put to dead

By which you mean 'the question that you didn't ask of me?' Yeah, that was a great dodge on my part, what with the not seeing it, and not feeling obligated to inject myself into every side conversation, and all.

I think someone in the PTO. The same people who make other determinations about the protectability of other things, subject to judicial review.
 

Lon

Well-known member
By a white person or by a blood? Else, I'm surprised, though not completely. A majority of people, Native American and otherwise aren't offended by the term.
Can be. I'd guess about 10% :chuckle: It is simply "identity." Mean/evil people will make them using derogatory, nice/good people will use terms for thier observations and mean it as a compliment. The dictionary, imo, is wrong on this fact. Daniel Webster didn't write that entry, people who are trying to be PC did, and that particular bias is showing. As such, the purpose of the dictionary no longer functions as intended. I think I'm going to have to start compiling terms for a proper dictionary. I'm not sure who'd buy it. :(


That's probably because it wasn't one. But what you aren't following is your own posit, because you made an issue over how long ago the team was founded and the timing of both the first formal objection and the court's response.

My answer was an illustration that it can take time. The Civil Rights landmark cases came nearly a hundred years after blacks were established uniformly as free men and citizens in this country.

I was mostly just curious as to how negatively you'd been impacted, how likely you were to be in a position to speak to that. To me the issue is as simple as Merriam Webster meets the people of Native American blood who are understandably offended. Many aren't. I can understand that too, having invested a very different approach to the word for most of my life.

But the word has been too closely and too often linked to marginalizing, stereotyping and insulting people like you, to the point where it's reasonable to object to it and be offended by it, even if that response isn't uniform. So it's time to find a new word for a storied representative of our actual national pastime.
Well, example then, but it is kind of like Hitler, blacks, race, and women's rights, they tend to get over-used and in this case the connection wasn't readily made to mind, so thank you for expounding for meaning here.

:up:
 

Lon

Well-known member
Censoring the superflous.

You"Redskins" are about as much of a compliment to American Indians, as "You look pretty when you're wearing make-up" is to women.

But what if I followed it up with "...and without" ? Context is everything. Even if I didn't finish, a man saying "WOW!" when his wife dresses up is not offensive.

So, if indeed you meant what you said and this is "about as much" then an Indian can take a compliment from someone 'wanting to associate' with them and long term, or they can do what they did. I suppose I can see it a bit like harrassment in the workplace. If I am forced to never say "Hello Cutie" to all the women in the workplace because one thinks its sexual harrasment, I suppose I can go without saying "Cutie" anymore but it is sad, and it is censorship, there is no denying that. The Washington Redskins cannot stop saying "Redskins" without changing their name. That'd be like me having to change my name if I were "Cutie."
Does it make better sense in this light?

You've knowingly and purposely used fallacious reasoning. If that doesn't bother you, then why should anyone care what you think?
You jumped in here, remember? Apparently you cared but were being ingenuine last post. Thank you for making this one more meaningful. I appreciate you re-evaluating and not trying to be trite or personal. Such makes for much more meaningful conversation (and give dignity and respect as well). Thank you. :up: I appreciate it.


I'm not talking about a lawsuit. I'm talking about what connotations a particular term has.
I think I'm following that point. Thanks.

-Lon
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Can be. I'd guess about 10% :chuckle:
When I was doing research I came across an article talking about that and how the general popular opinion has been shifting toward a negative view on the use, but still a minority view.

It is simply "identity." Mean/evil people will make them using derogatory, nice/good people will use terms for thier observations and mean it as a compliment. The dictionary, imo, is wrong on this fact. Daniel Webster didn't write that entry, people who are trying to be PC did, and that particular bias is showing.
Really? Who were they, what are their political leanings and when did they make the decision and, to your mind alteration. Because without that you're just reading in an interesting bit of fiction into what we actually can know here.

Now think about this, if that same definition agreed with you would you be touting it suspecting bias and conservative political correctness was in play. And while we're at it I hate the term political correctness. It's a uselessly subjective phrase trying to cover the user in the guise of analysis and conclusion.

As such, the purpose of the dictionary no longer functions as intended.
The purpose of a dictionary is to reflect usage. You could argue that for some time more people than not appear to think of it more positively, but you'd also have to note there's been a steady shift in that opinion toward the negative. Or you could just note it has been, historically and therefore usually used in a less than flattering manner.

I think I'm going to have to start compiling terms for a proper dictionary. I'm not sure who'd buy it. :(
Well, I'm not buying it so far. ;)

Well, example then, but it is kind of like Hitler, blacks, race, and women's rights, they tend to get over-used and in this case the connection wasn't readily made to mind, so thank you for expounding for meaning here.
A pleasure. :cheers:
 

Lon

Well-known member
When I was doing research I came across an article talking about that and how the general popular opinion has been shifting toward a negative view on the use, but still a minority view.


Really? Who were they, what are their political leanings and when did they make the decision and, to your mind alteration. Because without that you're just reading in an interesting bit of fiction into what we actually can know here.

Now think about this, if that same definition agreed with you would you be touting it suspecting bias and conservative political correctness was in play. And while we're at it I hate the term political correctness. It's a uselessly subjective phrase trying to cover the user in the guise of analysis and conclusion.
You must know, up front, I'm not for affirmative action. Why? Because it deals with minorities on both sides but makes a ruling for/against the majority. Such is accomodating and I only believe it viable if such is necessary, and by necessary, I mean that it must be shown to adversely affect a populace. Lacking that, I am not for capitulations. It is too untowardly and out of balance. I'm against big-government including big court needs as well. I don't believe people in the city should be voting about hunting rights either (unless they hold hunting and fishing licenses). Fish and Game and hunters should be allowed to monitor and govern themselves because the rest of us have no vested interest other than thinking animals are pretty or whatever. We are not in the environment, we have no business voting on environmental issues that do not at all affect us. As far as the Redskins, we can probably let Indian Affairs and the WA Redskins hammer this out amongst themselves. Other than the same identification concerns, there really isn't a vested interest by the rest of us. I'm just saying I think this a frivolous unnecessary lawsuit. In a nutshell, there are Indians, like here in the NW, that amalgamate with society and there are some that are still bitter. As such, this is a tip of the iceberg issue. There is good reason for the bitterness, I've followed my Nation's complaints (Blackfeet). Re-education/resettlement efforts from both religion and the U.S. were bitter pills and the effects are still present such that there is angst. Those wouldn't see "Redskin" as a compliment and it doesn't matter what the term means, they'd prefer a large portion of the United States all to their own and are bitter that cannot happen. So, I'm sympathetic. This suit then, would be a push in that direction, kind of like the Jews being given back Jerusalem. Maybe such will come to a head and there will be two sovereign nations eventually in America?

The purpose of a dictionary is to reflect usage. You could argue that for some time more people than not appear to think of it more positively, but you'd also have to note there's been a steady shift in that opinion toward the negative. Or you could just note it has been, historically and therefore usually used in a less than flattering manner.


Well, I'm not buying it so far. ;)
Even if it accurately defined the terms mentioning 'trending?' ;)

A pleasure. :cheers:
His blessings, brother (might have to talk Knight into exchanging the Cheers icon for a peace-pipe) :)
-Lon
 
I just found out that "Viking" is an offence to some. It's the name given by those they raided...like "barbarian" or "pirate." Since I'm descended from "these people" if I ever hear anybody here use the V word I'm going to report you to Knight!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
You must know, up front, I'm not for affirmative action.
I can understand the thinking that brought it about, but I can't see it as an institution and it as it isn't and I haven't raised it, I'll leave off at that.

I'm against big-government including big court needs as well. I don't believe people in the city should be voting about hunting rights either (unless they hold hunting and fishing licenses). Fish and Game and hunters should be allowed to monitor and govern themselves because the rest of us have no vested interest other than thinking animals are pretty or whatever.
I think that's a little like letting the coal industry regulate themselves. I'm not comfortable assuming the long term interest of everyone will outweigh a short sighted desire.

We are not in the environment, we have no business voting on environmental issues that do not at all affect us.
It's an ecosystem. What we do to one part affects the rest. I don't want a collection of city states and rural collectives. But there you go.

As far as the Redskins, we can probably let Indian Affairs and the WA Redskins hammer this out amongst themselves. Other than the same identification concerns, there really isn't a vested interest by the rest of us.
We have a vested interest in the sort of world our children inherit. A number of Native American Groups, including the Congress, is in support of the recent attempt to deny patent.

I'm just saying I think this a frivolous unnecessary lawsuit.
In this case the plaintiff prevailed. So that's a prima facie case against your interpretation.

In a nutshell, there are Indians, like here in the NW, that amalgamate with society and there are some that are still bitter.
Or, instead of being bitter you could simply agree with the dictionary and think our nation's capital's team in the sport that is for all practical intents and purposes our national pastime should have a better face on than one that pointlessly insults a segment of the people it represents.

Even if it accurately defined the terms mentioning 'trending?' ;)
I'd say the fairest reading would note the historic usage, the upturn and the fall away, but that's probably too much verbiage. :think:

His blessings, brother (might have to talk Knight into exchanging the Cheers icon for a peace-pipe) :)
-Lon
I only smoke when I'm on fire, but who doesn't hoist a frosty mug of rootbeer once in a while? :cheers:
 

JPPT1974

Well-known member
I am a huge football fan and really have found nothing discriminating in the Redskins name. Sorry for those that have though. And if it is meant to be changed. Then so be it!
 

Lon

Well-known member
I can understand the thinking that brought it about, but I can't see it as an institution and it as it isn't and I haven't raised it, I'll leave off at that.


I think that's a little like letting the coal industry regulate themselves. I'm not comfortable assuming the long term interest of everyone will outweigh a short sighted desire.
Well, we are off the beaten path (no pun), but in some ways still peripheral to it. Washington voters have messed up farming and other environment issues because they are not a well-informed voting populace. I think the solution is to vote in a measure of self-regulation for farmers, hunters, fishermen, anyone else carrying a game card, and Fish and Game.


It's an ecosystem. What we do to one part affects the rest. I don't want a collection of city states and rural collectives. But there you go.
Exactly. We can probably let Indian Affairs and the WA Redskins settle up without us too. This isn't the first team to have to have a name-change but it seems a waste of money. There are needy Indian communities that would have been MUCH better served by the money, resources, time, and effort that was put into this grievance. I hate anything that ignores needs and pushes toward absurd. In comparison, this is certainly that. That said, we don't have a lot of say in what the Nations do. We will influence people in our little corner of the TOL world is all.

We have a vested interest in the sort of world our children inherit. A number of Native American Groups, including the Congress, is in support of the recent attempt to deny patent.
Some tribes are still in terrible shape. As we are giving them money, we should be able to monitor a tiny bit that kids are taken care of. They don't need welfare, they need people to care, restore dignity.

In this case the plaintiff prevailed. So that's a prima facie case against your interpretation.
Yes, but we don't always get it right and we are currenly a sue-happy country. The court cases are still ongoing and the WA Redskins have a bit more $ to toss at the ruling, yet. We can wait and see, this particular isn't earth-shaking though it is getting a LOT of TOL press! o_O


Or, instead of being bitter you could simply agree with the dictionary and think our nation's capital's team in the sport that is for all practical intents and purposes our national pastime should have a better face on than one that pointlessly insults a segment of the people it represents.
Again, in the grand scheme of things, WA's owner made his own bed.
They probably still would have had to change their name, but "Cherokees" would be a good football name. I'm partial to a soccerteam "Blackfeet."

I'd say the fairest reading would note the historic usage, the upturn and the fall away, but that's probably too much verbiage. :think:
That's the better approach imho, but I'm old school. My Webster's comes in volume! :)
I only smoke when I'm on fire, but who doesn't hoist a frosty mug of rootbeer once in a while? :cheers:
You are missing out. Smoked fish and meats are very Native and excellent! :cigar: (I don't smoke either).
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Well, we are off the beaten path (no pun), but in some ways still peripheral to it.
Sorry about the extra it in there. Else, I'll give you the last word on the point and move on.

Exactly. We can probably let Indian Affairs and the WA Redskins settle up without us too. This isn't the first team to have to have a name-change but it seems a waste of money.
He'll make money. All the new logo merchandise. And the old stock will likely sell like pancakes too, being snapped up before it's gone.

There are needy Indian communities that would have been MUCH better served by the money, resources, time, and effort that was put into this grievance.
Lon you could say that about nearly anything. You could spend the time and coin here on feeding the hungry. I imagine the many offended might answer that there's no price on their dignity and it's foundational to addressing a host of issues.

I hate anything that ignores needs and pushes toward absurd. In comparison, this is certainly that.
That's because it doesn't bother you. I doubt the people it does feel that way about it and they're the ones actually being impacted by it.

Yes, but we don't always get it right and we are currenly a sue-happy country.
That's a little misleading. Certainly we're higher in in terms of suit filing per thousand than our European cousins. Two to one over England by the last study I know about.

But that's a little misleading for a number of reasons: like, in our country if you lose it doesn't automatically mean you pay for the other side. That discourages both goofy European suits AND those without fairly open and shut verdicts. And we have more access to courts than do a number of other countries. Small claims courts, by way of, don't even require an attorney here.

Again, in the grand scheme of things, WA's owner made his own bed.
They probably still would have had to change their name, but "Cherokees" would be a good football name. I'm partial to a soccerteam "Blackfeet."

I'd like that. I'd like to see him take control of the destiny of his team in a positive way and in association with the Nations, so the connection could continue, if in a more uniformly agreeable and celebratory fashion. He could make everyone a winner in this.

You are missing out. Smoked fish and meats are very Native and excellent! :cigar: (I don't smoke either).
Well we have a creek nearby, so I am not far...yeah, that was bad. :eek:
 
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