Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[Sonnet]

Reprobation is without remedy because God decrees it and therefore, irreversible. , ,even by Him.

I think the definition I'm using is different.

 

[Sonnet]

Read again what you said.




You said it.

Is your definition of 'depraved' the same as mine?

 

[Cross Reference]

This is complex and I'm not totally following you.

Larger than himself?

Not indwelt by the spirit?

Degree of glory?

If I said the law of our flesh is more powerful than doctrine we learn, even from God Himself, that calls us up to something higher in Him, how do you believe you would handle things when tempted to gratify yourself.

 

[Sonnet]

If I said the law of our flesh is more powerful than doctrine we learn, even from God Himself, that calls us up to something higher in Him, how do you believe you would handle things when tempted to gratify yourself.

Well I'd say this is our depravity.

 

[chrysostom]

Well I'd say this is our depravity.

is it total?

 

[Sonnet]

is it total?

Not in the Calvinist sense - not so that we, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, cannot exercise faith.

 

[Cross Reference]

Well I'd say this is our depravity.

Depravity we are given to overcome? I doubt that. I rather believe that because we aren't depraved is the reason for such a battle. Certainly, if we were there would be no battle.

 

[Cross Reference]

Well I'd say this is our depravity.

Depravity we are given to overcome? I doubt that. I rather believe that because we aren't depraved is the reason for such a battle. Certainly, if we were there would be no battle. By what means we use will determine the outcome.

 

[Sonnet]

Depravity we are given to overcome? I doubt that. I rather believe that because we aren't depraved is the reason for such a battle. Certainly, if we were there would be no battle.

But you do agree that we don't overcome by works of righteousness don't you?

There may be a continuing issue with definitions here.

 

[Cross Reference]

B

ut you do agree that we don't overcome by works of righteousness don't you?

No, I don't. Though works of righteousness is to follow faith we are not saved by those works of righteousness, nor could we be because our righteousness does not meet the standard for our salvation, seeing as how we were conceived in sin.

There may be a continuing issue with definitions here.

I understand . . ')

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

If it merely competes we should, of ourselves, be able to win out.

Here is the key to winning God never interferes in because He is looking for allegiance and when He looks for it it will always be along the line of our being tempted by it, with Him only looking on but not interfering: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15 (KJV)

Even Jesus was subjected to such aloneness when in His temptations. What kept Him that we need to learn?

He was given the Holy Spirit without measure.

So no, he was not alone.

What do you need to learn?

Believe Jesus and ask for more of the Holy Spirit.

Over and over, just like the woman kept going to the judge.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Depravity we are given to overcome? I doubt that. I rather believe that because we aren't depraved is the reason for such a battle. Certainly, if we were there would be no battle.

Adam was depraved.

The guy couldn't keep one command.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I certainly agree that man is depraved - and the older one gets, the more evident this becomes - but I don't see that you have substantiated that faith requires 'moral ability'.

Can you?

God gave him life.

Didn't he have a moral obligation to choose God over his wife?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I certainly agree that man is depraved - and the older one gets, the more evident this becomes - but I don't see that you have substantiated that faith requires 'moral ability'.

Can you?

If lost man is depraved, and he is, the lost man possesses no moral ability in and of himself to choose wisely, the choice of the righteousness of God. If man possesses the ability to choose without any help from the Holy Spirit, then man is in control, and God is made a debtor to man's wise choice, rewarding said choice with eternal life. God is not a contingent being, dependent upon the actions of those He created.

Accordingly, God the Holy Spirit must first act upon that depraved man (Eze. 36:26). This action, through the ordinary means of the hearing of the Good news, is efficacious saving grace that now instills within the man the moral ability to choose wisely. Said regenerated man will choose to believe at this point, for said efficacious grace cannot be resisted. For that matter, the one so regenerated will freely want to believe and will believe. This synergism follows the monergism of regeneration. Faith is the first fruit of regeneration. The other side of that coin, repentance, follows.

The Arminian will put faith and repentance before regeneration. This implies a view that man possesses some inherent "seed" of grace that allows him to choose wisely. This is the Romanist view adopted by the Arminian. Both make God to be a debtor and man possessing a reason to boast for his own wise choices. We Reformed take a high view of the sovereignty of God and do not rob God of His right to rule and dispose of His fallen creatures (saving some, leaving others in their state of original and ongoing sin) as He so deems to do.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Indeed , the unbeliever is without excuse because God has evidenced Himself to the unbeliever that, as you said, DOES NOT require a 'gift of faith' to understand. Ergo, everyone starts out on the same footing, i.e., KNOWING there is a God. The ones who continually wilfully reject Him; who no longer wish to retain Him in their thinking after being provided understanding, He turns over to reprobation. That is what Romans 1 tells us.

Half correct. Romans 1 teaches us that all the lost have replaced the truth of God with a lie. No exceptions are made, as you are trying to import in the above. Those among the lost that believe become believers by the regenerative working of the Holy Spirit (Eze. 36:26). Regeneration first. Faith and repentance second.

AMR

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Reprobation is without remedy because God decrees it and therefore, irreversible. , ,even by Him.

That was done for an ensample to us.

You have reached full blown insolence to the Father.

God can't change hearts you say, just modify them and that beyond repair?

Do you even stop to think before you run that head?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Odd duck, my foot! You are the one full of contradictions.

The OT saints were indeed saved by grace, however, at that point in time was God's grace, the amount extended to righteous man, limited insofar as it could NOT effect man beyond the grave, the abode of the dead, Abraham's bosom, Sheol. If it could have there would have been no reason for the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ. So what is your definition of Redemption if I am not correct in this?

This link is full of error except to the Calvinist, who needs to believe it to suppport his religious non-life:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html[

Of course, everyone else is wrong but you. Beware of the minority view. It is subtle and tempting to one's pride. The church militant has spoken on these matters and when you find yourself outside the camp, that should signal careful treading. There is nothing Calvinistic in the link in question so attempting to poison the well with the usual anti-Calvinist canards hints you do not know wherein you speak.

Concerning all who die prior to Christ's return, the Bible teaches that at the moment of death the human spirit (soul) departs its body to one of two possible destinations: Heaven or Hades (Luke 16:19-31; Phil. 1:19-26; James 2:26; Rev. 6:9, 20:4). Those who reach Heaven do so based not upon their own good works, but upon the work of Christ in their behalf—His righteous life and atoning death—and upon their God-given faith in Him (Mark 10: 45; John 1:12, 3:16; Rom. 3:21; Eph. 2:8-10).

The saints in Heaven (Abraham’s bosom)—fully aware of their surroundings and delighted by its manifold blessings per their walk of faith (Heb. 12:22-24)—eagerly await their Lord's return at the end of the age, when Our Lord will consummate their redemption by raising them from the dead with new, glorified, resurrection bodies just as He now possesses, and by creating for them a glorious new world in which they will forever live together with Him (Luke 20:27-40, John 5:28, 1 Cor. 15, Phil. 3:20-21; 2 Pet. 3:13).

Those who enter Hades (Sheol in Hebrew) do so based upon their own evil works, especially upon the evil work of suppressing the truth that God made known to them through nature, the Law, and the Gospel, the Gospel being God's only provision for the forgiveness of sin and the acquisition of eternal life (John 3:19,36: John 5:29; Acts 13:46, Rom. 2:8; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 20:12).

In Hades the lost are in the torments of eternal punishment, deprived of God's every life-giving blessing, conscious of God's abiding wrath, and subject to the positive pains of divine retribution all according to their particular sins. Also, to the extent that they may be aware of it, the lost are tormented in this intermediate state of prison by anticipation of the Resurrection and the Day of Judgment, when Christ will send them—body and soul—into Gehenna (Hell), the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 8:29, Mt. 10:28, 25: 41; Mark 9:48, Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:14) where they will remain forever afterwards suffering unending retributive punishment.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Cherry picked misapplied verses of scripture chosen to make fit a religious bent. Damnable to the ones who do so.

Feel free to discuss the full counsel of Holy Writ on the matter of the moral state of the non-believer:

Deuteronomy 7:6-8, Deuteronomy 10:14-15, Lamentations 5:21, Isaiah 55:11, Amos 3:2, Jeremiah 1:5, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 24:22-24, Matthew 24:31, Luke 12:6-7, John 6:37-39, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 15:16, John 17:19, Acts 2:23, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 17:26, Acts 18:27, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:11-16, Romans 11:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 1 Corinthians 8:3, Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:19, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 1 Peter 1:4-5, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 1:5-11

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Show one scripture that shows God saves UNBELIEVERS!

Do it now or concede.

Put on some glasses and re-read without skipping over the Scripture cited:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-reprobation&p=4755781&viewfull=1#post4755781

Plenty of verses therein. Here are some more for extra credit:

Deuteronomy 7:6-8, Deuteronomy 10:14-15, Lamentations 5:21, Isaiah 55:11, Amos 3:2, Jeremiah 1:5, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 24:22-24, Matthew 24:31, Luke 12:6-7, John 6:37-39, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 15:16, John 17:19, Acts 2:23, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 17:26, Acts 18:27, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:11-16, Romans 11:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 1 Corinthians 8:3, Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:19, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 1 Peter 1:4-5, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 1:5-11

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Is your definition of 'depraved' the same as mine?

It is quite simple. The depraved are deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9); full of evil (Mark 7:21-23); not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2); must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5); cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5); love darkness rather than light (John 3:19); unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12); helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6); dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1); by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3); cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and slaves of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

A summary: the lost hate God with every thought, word, or deed. Even their acts of civil moral good, e.g., giving to charity, helping the old lady across the road, etc., are performed with the wrong motives, never done to bring all glory to God. For they hate God even in their indifference to God.

All other views than the above seek to smuggle in some minuscule of goodness (Romanistic prevenient grace) in the lost man, such that he is really not morally dead, but only morally wounded and able to grasp at the life preserver cast in his direction and thereby save himself. Scripture knows nothing of this sort of creature made by God. It is the view of fallen humanistic thinking, wherein man seeks to elevate himself as the captain of his own soul (also not in Scripture). Lazarus is the proper metaphor here. Dead, not wounded, until quickened to life by Our Lord.


AMR