Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

God's Truth

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And my smile starts to go away..... Nope it's back.

Your concern and care are appreciated.


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I want to show you God's Truth in the scriptures. I want to show you that all denominations are based on man's teachings.

The faith alone crowd teaches faith and no obedience, and the Calvinists teach no faith and no obedience until after one is saved

Jesus Christ: Believe and obey

Faith alone person: I will believe but I might or might not obey, since it makes no difference.

Calvinist: No Jesus, I will not believe and I will not obey until after you save me.
 

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Not following you NIG.

No disrespect to our brothers and sisters in Christ, through St. Calvin,

But, Calvinist's could only really identify the source of Calvinism and its authority from their stance.

The very fact that much slander occurred over the topic, [not saying I didn't say sons of Devils (recanted and apologized for)], from many Calvinist's towards the doubt of their system is indeed a quantifiable result of this discussion.

The fact that Calvinist's fixated on their view and defending it theologically, instead of expounding on its value to further genuine gospel witness is a solid result.

It is viewable all throughout the thread.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 

Sonnet

New member
No disrespect to our brothers and sisters in Christ, through St. Calvin,

But, Calvinist's could only really identify the source of Calvinism and its authority from their stance.

The very fact that much slander occurred over the topic, [not saying I didn't say sons of Devils (recanted and apologized for)], from many Calvinist's towards the doubt of their system is indeed a quantifiable result of this discussion.

The fact that Calvinist's fixated on their view and defending it theologically, instead of expounding on its value to further genuine gospel witness is a solid result.

It is viewable all throughout the thread.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

I'm not quite following.
 

Nameless.In.Grace

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Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

I'm not quite following.

Not one Calvinist explained how the doctrine of Reprobation helps further the gospel, or extend the core message of unconditional Love taught by Christ.

There was only defense of the core doctrine and demand that the filter of reformed theology be a necessary requirement to be counted as having a valid understanding of the gospel.

Slander was a frequent response from several being questioned and defending their doctrine imputed by Calvin.

I was no angel, but I have apologized.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 

Sonnet

New member
Not one Calvinist explained how the doctrine of Reprobation helps further the gospel, or extend the core message of unconditional Love taught by Christ.

There was only defense of the core doctrine and demand that the filter of reformed theology be a necessary requirement to be counted as having a valid understanding of the gospel.

Slander was a frequent response from several being questioned and defending their doctrine imputed by Calvin.

I was no angel, but I have apologized.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

OK.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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AMR,

I was humbled by the way Knight, yourself and your friend expounded on matters in that one post. There was open dialogue, void of condemnation.

I'm still working through it.

May I ask you to explain how the doctrine of Reprobation applies to the entire world?

For instance, how it impacts witness and the Calvinist's perspective view of people whose sins are more easy to nail down by carnal judgment.
Glad you liked the Two-On-One Thread!

I am not sure what a doctrine of reprobation implies. Many confuse the doctrine of predestination as an equal utimacy. It is not. See here.

As I have noted elsewhere, God has graciously chosen His people, the elect, out of a mass of already fallen humanity (per the doctrine of the original sin of Adam, wherein as our federal representative, we all sinned just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden). Following Adam's sin all Adam's progeny are born without any moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God (see Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph, 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Those God has chosen from this fallen lump of humanity, will be saved, for the elect will respond to both the outward call, via the proclamation of the gospel, and the efficacious inward call (via the Holy Spirit). These chosen by God, the elect, using their free moral agency, will so respond because God will actively work to bring them to their regeneration, quickening them (regenerating) from spiritual death to life (Eze. 36:26) by the Holy Spirit, and subsequently to their free moral choice of faith.

Further, God has left the remainder of the fallen mass of humanity to their own means and their justly deserved ends. These are called the reprobate. From the total inability of their sinful natures, the very efficient cause of reprobation, the reprobate will reject this outward call, all the while using the very same free moral agency that the elect possessed. In short, and contrary to the equal ultimacy view of the heretical Hyper-Calvinist, God is not forcing people who want to go to Heaven to go to Hell!

As to our evangelical efforts and witness, we proclaim promiscuously to all persons that whomever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. We are commanded to do so for we are not informed by God in Holy Writ the exact identities of those who will never accept the Good News. Rather God uses the ordained means of the promiscuous preaching of the Good News to achieve His ordained ends.

History attests to the great efforts and witness of Calvinists in the spread of the Good News:
Spoiler
Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Then Arminians embrace a contradiction. And no matter how they dress it up with pithy sayings or sanctimonious platitudes, in the end it's still a contradiction. Thank goodness that logical consistency and sound reasoning aren't requisites to salvation in Christ.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

Persons can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke them. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering any misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.



AMR


 
Last edited:

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Reprobation diminishes the Mercy of God and the name of God. Calvinist know this is true as do you. It also flatly contradicts scripture. Calvinism was authored by the father of lies in an attempt to deceive people into believing God is not love (1 John 4:8). Calvinists don't answer because they don't have any.

"...in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for His Mercy." (Romans:15:9)

"But you are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness." (Psalms 86:15)

"...who(God) desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:4)
 

God's Truth

New member
Glad you liked the Two-On-One Thread!

I am not sure what a doctrine of reprobation implies. Many confuse the doctrine of predestination as an equal utimacy. It is not. See here.

As I have noted elsewhere, God has graciously chosen His people, the elect, out of a mass of already fallen humanity (per the doctrine of the original sin of Adam, wherein as our federal representative, we all sinned just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden). Following Adam's sin all Adam's progeny are born without any moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God (see Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph, 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Those God has chosen from this fallen lump of humanity, will be saved, for the elect will respond to both the outward call, via the proclamation of the gospel, and the efficacious inward call (via the Holy Spirit). These chosen by God, the elect, using their free moral agency, will so respond because God will actively work to bring them to their regeneration, quickening them (regenerating) from spiritual death to life (Eze. 36:26) by the Holy Spirit, and subsequently to their free moral choice of faith.

Further, God has left the remainder of the fallen mass of humanity to their own means and their justly deserved ends. These are called the reprobate. From the total inability of their sinful natures, the very efficient cause of reprobation, the reprobate will reject this outward call, all the while using the very same free moral agency that the elect possessed. In short, and contrary to the equal ultimacy view of the heretical Hyper-Calvinist, God is not forcing people who want to go to Heaven to go to Hell!

As to our evangelical efforts and witness, we proclaim promiscuously to all persons that whomever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. We are commanded to do so for we are not informed by God in Holy Writ the exact identities of those who will never accept the Good News. Indeed, history attests to the great efforts and witness of Calvinists in the spread of the Good News:
Spoiler
Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Then Arminians embrace a contradiction. And no matter how they dress it up with pithy sayings or sanctimonious platitudes, in the end it's still a contradiction. Thank goodness that logical consistency and sound reasoning aren't requisites to salvation in Christ.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

You can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke you. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering your misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.



AMR



The Bible does NOT say ANYWHERE that all humans cannot hear the truth and be saved without first receiving the Holy Spirit.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

WE MUST HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD TO HAVE FAITH.

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
 

God's Truth

New member
Of course, there are some people who are reprobates, but NOT ALL ARE REPROBATES.

If God has to give people the Holy Spirit first and cause them to believe and obey, then why would God have to ever harden the Pharaoh?
 

God's Truth

New member
If all were reprobates, then NO ONE WOULD EVER BE SAVED.

However, what does the Word say?

The Word says there are those who have good and honest hearts, and that there are people who have good in them, and that there are people on the side of truth.


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”


Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.


John 18:37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."
 

Nameless.In.Grace

BANNED
Banned
Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Glad you liked the Two-On-One Thread!

I am not sure what a doctrine of reprobation implies. Many confuse the doctrine of predestination as an equal utimacy. It is not. See here.

As I have noted elsewhere, God has graciously chosen His people, the elect, out of a mass of already fallen humanity (per the doctrine of the original sin of Adam, wherein as our federal representative, we all sinned just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden). Following Adam's sin all Adam's progeny are born without any moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God (see Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph, 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Those God has chosen from this fallen lump of humanity, will be saved, for the elect will respond to both the outward call, via the proclamation of the gospel, and the efficacious inward call (via the Holy Spirit). These chosen by God, the elect, using their free moral agency, will so respond because God will actively work to bring them to their regeneration, quickening them (regenerating) from spiritual death to life (Eze. 36:26) by the Holy Spirit, and subsequently to their free moral choice of faith.

Further, God has left the remainder of the fallen mass of humanity to their own means and their justly deserved ends. These are called the reprobate. From the total inability of their sinful natures, the very efficient cause of reprobation, the reprobate will reject this outward call, all the while using the very same free moral agency that the elect possessed. In short, and contrary to the equal ultimacy view of the heretical Hyper-Calvinist, God is not forcing people who want to go to Heaven to go to Hell!

As to our evangelical efforts and witness, we proclaim promiscuously to all persons that whomever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. We are commanded to do so for we are not informed by God in Holy Writ the exact identities of those who will never accept the Good News. Rather God uses the ordained means of the promiscuous preaching of the Good News to achieve His ordained ends.

History attests to the great efforts and witness of Calvinists in the spread of the Good News:
Spoiler
Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Then Arminians embrace a contradiction. And no matter how they dress it up with pithy sayings or sanctimonious platitudes, in the end it's still a contradiction. Thank goodness that logical consistency and sound reasoning aren't requisites to salvation in Christ.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

Persons can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke them. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering any misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.



AMR




I do not know the statistics, but if my Calvinist' brothers and sisters are indeed building the body, then you are all indeed a necessary part of our Lord and Saviors Body.

He is indeed our Head, and His precepts of Faith, Hope Love and Grace are the very ligaments and tendons that bind us all uniquely together.

I have spoken strongly, but for my part in all this, I extend my hand in a handshake of respect.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary
 
Last edited:

Sonnet

New member
Glad you liked the Two-On-One Thread!

I am not sure what a doctrine of reprobation implies. Many confuse the doctrine of predestination as an equal utimacy. It is not. See here.

As I have noted elsewhere, God has graciously chosen His people, the elect, out of a mass of already fallen humanity (per the doctrine of the original sin of Adam, wherein as our federal representative, we all sinned just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden). Following Adam's sin all Adam's progeny are born without any moral ability to seek after the righteousness of God (see Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph, 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Those God has chosen from this fallen lump of humanity, will be saved, for the elect will respond to both the outward call, via the proclamation of the gospel, and the efficacious inward call (via the Holy Spirit). These chosen by God, the elect, using their free moral agency, will so respond because God will actively work to bring them to their regeneration, quickening them (regenerating) from spiritual death to life (Eze. 36:26) by the Holy Spirit, and subsequently to their free moral choice of faith.

Further, God has left the remainder of the fallen mass of humanity to their own means and their justly deserved ends. These are called the reprobate. From the total inability of their sinful natures, the very efficient cause of reprobation, the reprobate will reject this outward call, all the while using the very same free moral agency that the elect possessed. In short, and contrary to the equal ultimacy view of the heretical Hyper-Calvinist, God is not forcing people who want to go to Heaven to go to Hell!

As to our evangelical efforts and witness, we proclaim promiscuously to all persons that whomever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and not lost to Him. We are commanded to do so for we are not informed by God in Holy Writ the exact identities of those who will never accept the Good News. Rather God uses the ordained means of the promiscuous preaching of the Good News to achieve His ordained ends.

History attests to the great efforts and witness of Calvinists in the spread of the Good News:
Spoiler
Some of the most dedicated and admired evangelists since the time of the Reformation were Calvinists (Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, etc.). And they were consistent with their doctrine. They realized that God not only ordains whomsoever will be saved; He ordains the means by which they will be saved -- namely, the preaching of the gospel. The Spirit moves the believer to spread the gospel, for that is his commission and one of the chief ends for which he was saved.

Then Arminians embrace a contradiction. And no matter how they dress it up with pithy sayings or sanctimonious platitudes, in the end it's still a contradiction. Thank goodness that logical consistency and sound reasoning aren't requisites to salvation in Christ.

Yes, the gospel is to be preached to all men (and women). Moreover, it should be delivered persuasively and with conviction (Acts 18:28; 2 Cor 5:11). We do not know who the elect are, whose eyes the Spirit will open and whose heart He will soften. That is a secret not revealed to us (Deuteronomy 29:29).

As in the parable of the seed and the sower (Matthew 13:1-9), the evangelist is not to be a "soil sampler". Instead, he scatters the seed on all ground, preaching the good news of God's Kingdom to all men. Yet it is only the good soil -- the heart which God has prepared beforehand -- that may receive the word in such a way that it takes root (c.f., Ezekiel 26:24-17 and John 3:1-12). The soil is not good in and of itself (Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). God makes it good (Matthew 12:33). And His word does not return to Him void, but accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:11).

Persons can bash Calvinism and try to set it against evangelism, but history will sharply rebuke them. Calvinism has been and continues to be a strong motivation for preaching to the lost. I mentioned Edwards, Whitefield, and Spurgeon because they are well known (if in name only) to most Arminians. But the evangelistic zeal of Calvinism did not live and die with them. There is also William Burns, who led spiritual revival in China. Rowland Hill, who preached in England prior to Spurgeon. Robert Murray M'Cheyne of Scotland. David Brainerd, William Carey, John Flavel, Benjamin Keach, John Rippon, Christmas Evans, John Clifford, Archibald Brown, J. B. Moody, H. B. Taylor, I. M. Haldeman, Jeremiah Burroughs, George S. Bishop, T. T. Eaton, and Martin Lloyd-Jones. Latimer, Knox, Wishart, Perkins, Rutherford, Bunyan, Owen, Charnock, Goodwin, Watson, Henry, Watts and Newton.

The list goes on and on an on, completely shattering any misguided notions about Calvinism and evangelism. The truth is that wherever Calvinism is embraced wholeheartedly, the gospel of Jesus Christ thunders forth with Spirit and conviction. Only in Arminian caricatures, wrought from warped and vain imaginations, do we find Calvinists ignoring the Great Commission.



AMR



Are you going to explain why this:

So regarding #33 (where McMahon affirms 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 as a 'very well defined summation of the Gospel') - do you preach this Gospel to the unsaved?

"We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

which is a simple question - deserves this from you:

Indeed. Hence no response to a response lacking in substance. Get it now? So stop calling for a response to this or that of your rejoinders to my responses until you can actually mount a substantial rejoinder worth considering.

AMR

?
 
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