Question for Bob Hill: Rewards
- Thread starter Sozo
- Start date
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Sozo,
We can know God’s absolutes as recorded in His Word, the Bible. We have absolutes. God is always absolutely right. If He wanted to, He could step in and make everything happen the way He wants it to be, but He treasures our free will. He wants us to love him because He is this wonderful God that He is. I love Him.
I study my Bible because I know it is truth. If I just read what I have written myself, I know there would be some error in it. I don’t want to be in error. That’s why I study about 40 to 50 hours a week.
To answer the “problem” in Rom 8:29, I think it is good to look at God’s repentance when He changed His mind after Moses prayed in Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
However, Ex 32:9-14 is not about God not knowing any of the future. God knows the future of the events He predetermines. In fact, that is exactly what our passage shows. He said in Rom 8:29,30: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
We can know God’s absolutes as recorded in His Word, the Bible. We have absolutes. God is always absolutely right. If He wanted to, He could step in and make everything happen the way He wants it to be, but He treasures our free will. He wants us to love him because He is this wonderful God that He is. I love Him.
I study my Bible because I know it is truth. If I just read what I have written myself, I know there would be some error in it. I don’t want to be in error. That’s why I study about 40 to 50 hours a week.
To answer the “problem” in Rom 8:29, I think it is good to look at God’s repentance when He changed His mind after Moses prayed in Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
However, Ex 32:9-14 is not about God not knowing any of the future. God knows the future of the events He predetermines. In fact, that is exactly what our passage shows. He said in Rom 8:29,30: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Freak said:
If receiving Christ as our Savior is the same thing as receiving crowns in heaven, then there is no debate. If the two are separate, then there is something to discuss. I think we all get your point, so if you have anything else to add, please do so. Otherwise, try another thread.
Sozo
New member
Bob Hill said:
I'm sorry Bob, but I do not understand what point you are making concerning fact that I believe we can know the truth of the gospel and share it, while at the same time warning others of false gospels and false teachers.
I certainly believe that God repented, does not know all future events, and that there are things that He predetermines.
Please help dispel my confusion with your post.
Sozo
Freak said:
I have not studied this issue extensively. I did not realize it was a controversial issue. I trust that Christ is my Reward and that there may be other unknown rewards for faithful service. This does not seem inconsistent with a personal God who is not arbitrary. I believe a widow who gives out of her poverty can have the same reward as a rich person who gives a smaller percentage. Someone who obeys God and serves others faithfully can have the same reward as an international evangelist who fulfills his unique calling with similar faithfulness.
Sozo said:
Since when are you open theist friendly? The issue is that you are wrongly confusing peripheral issues with the core of the Gospel. You can warn others about false gospels like Mormons and JWs, but to assume all theological debates on peripheral issues that differ from your limited perspective makes one a false teacher or denier of essential Christian truth lacks credibility. Virtually no one out of the millions of Christians would be saved with your criteria.
Again, what is the author and book that has emphasized a legitimate truth about "LIFE" out of balance with other equally valid Scriptural truths? I think his name begins with 'S'.
As an aside, I find it hard to believe that you reject Ravenhill now. He was an anointed evangelist, revivalist. Revival and spiritual awakening are God initiated. You cannot gut issues of holiness, sin, and repentance from your message (as it appears you do in relation to believers/perfectionism) and expect some believers to experience the transforming power of God. Keith Green was used to awaken much of a sleeping generation/church. It seems to me thinly veiled arrogance to reject portions of the body of Christ because they were growing in their understanding of God or because they do not line up with your new book you discovered (I know you do not agree with everything in that book, but perhaps you have been unduly influenced by it...not everyone who read or reviewed the book found everything credible).
What is the book so I can understand your perspective better (don't bother claiming you just get your ideas from the Bible)?
I do not hide my influences. Why would you?
Bob Hill said:
Iron sharpens iron, but we need our soft wives too. I am pleased you study so many hours diligently. It is a challenge to get it from our heads to our hearts so it will transform us and others, the goal of truth (vs puff up in pride). May we speak the truth in love and recognize the added responsibility to be teachable if we are to be teachers.
I look forward to meeting you in heaven unless you need a place to stay in Canada before then.
What are a few of your favorite books besides the Bible?
Sozo
New member
godrulz... if you need a list of books that do a fair job of revealing some of the same things I believe, then here you go...
Major Ian Thomas - The Saving Life Of Christ
Malcolm Smith - Spiritual Burnout
Peter Gilquist - Love is Now
Bob George - Classic Christianity or The Faith That Pleases God
David Needham - Birthright (Part One only)
Jack Stewart - The Legalist
Bill Gillham - What God Wishes Christians Knew About Christianity
Have fun, and let me know when you are finished reading them!
Major Ian Thomas - The Saving Life Of Christ
Malcolm Smith - Spiritual Burnout
Peter Gilquist - Love is Now
Bob George - Classic Christianity or The Faith That Pleases God
David Needham - Birthright (Part One only)
Jack Stewart - The Legalist
Bill Gillham - What God Wishes Christians Knew About Christianity
Have fun, and let me know when you are finished reading them!
Sozo said:
I think Clete and maybe yourself recommended Stanford's books. He seems to feel George is incorrect in his views. How can they both be right if they contradict? This shows we must critically evaluate all that we read since it can sound persuasive and consistent on the surface, but may be problematic on closer examination. I am not familiar exactly with most of these author's detailed views.
http://withchrist.org/MJS/bob_george.htm
Sozo
New member
Here... I'll give you one of Bob's outlines. However, please remember that I am not totally in sync with everything he says.
Law & Grace
John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 7
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Hebrews 7
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath,
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin
1 Timothy 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation
Galatians 3
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life
Galatians 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The law can only bring death
Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
Galatians 3
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Matthew 5
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Hebrews 10
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Christ fulfilled the law
Matthew 5
27 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5
21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
The purpose of the law is to stir up sin
1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Romans 7
5 For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.
Colossians 2
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Romans 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
The law includes the ten commandments
2 Corinthians 3
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
John 19
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Hebrews 10
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Galatians 4
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
Hebrews 9
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ
Galatians 3
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law
Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him
Romans 7
1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
2 Corinthians 12
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me
Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith
Law & Grace
John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 7
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Hebrews 7
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath,
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin
1 Timothy 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation
Galatians 3
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life
Galatians 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The law can only bring death
Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
Galatians 3
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Matthew 5
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Hebrews 10
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Christ fulfilled the law
Matthew 5
27 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5
21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
The purpose of the law is to stir up sin
1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Romans 7
5 For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.
Colossians 2
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Romans 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
The law includes the ten commandments
2 Corinthians 3
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
John 19
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Hebrews 10
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,
Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Galatians 4
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.
Hebrews 9
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ
Galatians 3
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law
Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him
Romans 7
1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
2 Corinthians 12
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me
Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith
Sozo
New member
godrulz said:
I read that link a long time ago. It doesn't have anything substantial to say.
godrulz... There is nothing that you can throw at me that I have not already heard, studied, prayed over, wept over, etc.
I read hundreds of theology books from every writer you can imagine Including: Luther, Tozer, Murray, Edwards, Lewis, Pink, Hunt, Nee, Packer, Pratney, Stott, Spurgeon, Finney, Wesley, Augustine, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Schaffer, Calvin, Henry, Pinnock, Morris, Whitehead, Hodge, Locke, Tertullian, Sproul, Origen, Martyr, Law etc.
You have never posted anything that I have not already either believed myself, or took a great deal of time researching to check it's validity.
The bible is wholly sufficient in relaying what we need to know concerning the message of the gospel. All of that effort and time I gave reading and studying those mens writings was wasted, except to tell others not to waste their time.
Sozo said:
Ultimately the living Word of God blows away the collections of dead men's brains. I commend you for doing your due diligence (more than most of us).
I am pleased I am now only confused and not a total false teacher (at least to placate Bob) :sigh:
I agree with your list of verses. I have also stated that the law cannot save us and that it is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Finney used the law to bring deep conviction and repentance so the lost would trust Christ alone for salvation. He contrasted the holy character and law of God with the selfish sinfulness of man. The Spirit used the Word to break people's hearts and to cling to the One who is love incarnate, full of grace and truth.