ECT Proper Understanding of Romans 11

[Danoh]

Both Jer 31 and Ezk 37 make it clear that there is a distinction between the two houses of Israelites until the New Covenant is made.

You deny that. You claim they were all "Jews", and that there were not two houses.

Unless you want to claim that Jer 31 and Ezk 37 were fulfilled hundreds of years before Jesus was born, you are wrong.

The stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah were joined together when Christ Jesus shed His blood and made the New Covenant.

Up until the New Covenant was made, there was a distinction between Joseph and Judah (House of Israel & House of Judah).

However, you and Danoh can't have that happen because your Dispensationalism falls apart.

Poor you; ya can't read.

Your problem is you think you are dealing with books based readers just because you and yours are :chuckle:

Jew became something similar to saying Hispanic - ask most Hispanics if they are of the same house - duh.

Or Arabic - ask them if they are all the same.

If you really want to get technical, Paul goes back and forth between the all in one labels Jew, Israel, and The Circumcision.

While in Romans 1-3 and 9-11 he refers to both houses as this goes back to when both houses were one, back in Moses' day.

Leviticus 26:

38. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39. And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41. And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42. Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43. The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46. These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Romans 11:

23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
29. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Israel's is an everlasting covenant and Jacob refers to both houses.

God's intent in this Prophetic aspect within His Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery?

1 Chronicles 16:

13. O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
14. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
15. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
16. Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
17. And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
18. Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
19. When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.
20. And when they went from nation to nation, and from one kingdom to another people;
21. He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,
22. Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
23. Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
24. Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations.

 

[tetelestai]

Leviticus 26:

38. And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39. And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41. And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42. Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43. The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46. These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

The parts you highlighted refer to when the Jews were taken captive to Babylon and the Israelites from the 10 tribes were taken away by the Assyrians. Verse 42 refers to when the Jews returned to Judah after the Babylonian captivity. It's not a future event.

While in captivity Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophesied about a new covenant that would be made with BOTH houses. The new covenant would be made when both houses were reunited. Ezekiel 37 tells us that when the two houses are united ONE KING would reign over them.

From the Babylonian captivity to Jesus, there was never a king over the Jews. Prior to Babylon, Israel and the Jews had a king since Saul.

When the New Covenant was put in place with the shed blood of Christ Jesus the two houses were joined together, and The Lord Jesus Christ became not only their king, but the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

In Peter's epistle, Peter is addressing the Israelites from the 10 tribes from the House of Israel, it is a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Hosea. Those Israelites were NEVER Jews.

Dispensationalism makes all Israelites Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth, and it's one of the reasons Dispensationalism is so screwed up.

 

[DAN P]

Correct, you're making my point.




Notice Paul says "I ALSO am an Israelite".

If Paul was referring to Jews, he wouldn't have said what he said.
.

Hi and Duet 29:4 is speaking to all of Israel or Jews !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

You forgot to mention Darby :chuckle:

And it is your over-reliance on your endless books based on secular history with its endless errors, that has you blind to what are basically one foreshadowing after another throughout Israel's history, of their final encounter with God by His Own Hand and towards His final "short work upon the earth" as to that nation, Rom. 9.

 

[Danoh]

Correct, you're making my point.

Notice Paul says "I ALSO am an Israelite".

If Paul was referring to Jews, he wouldn't have said what he said.

The Jews were never "cut off". The Jews were never cast away.

Paul references Elijah because Elijah was NOT a Jew. Elijah was an Israelite from the 10 Northern tribes, they were the only Israelites God ever "cut off", and cast away.

What an absolute mess you have made of two words "I also."

Paul's intended sense - to all Gentiles Romans has ended up being written to - is that he; the Apostle of the Gentiles, is also an Israelite.

Translation: From what little I know of Darby, that is Darby 101 you poser - that God is not though with Jacob.

Yep - Darby was right about this :thumb:

In case you forget to mention Darby.

While I am at it; Darby may not have been A9D to the extent that, say, I am in my own understanding; but he is one of our own, as much as the Apostle Paul is.

So please, don't forget to malign him - keep his name out there.

The more astute will see past your fool nonsense.

 

[tetelestai]

Hi and Duet 29:4 is speaking to all of Israel or Jews !!

dan p

There was no such thing as a "Jew" in the days of Moses. The word "Jew" didn't exist, and the Israelites hadn't been split into two houses.

Moses was not a Jew.

Neither was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, and Elijah.

They were Israelites, but they were NEVER Jews.

 

[tetelestai]

What an absolute mess you have made of two words "I also."

There's a really good reason all you MADists can't agree on whether or not the epistle to the Romans was written to believers or unbelievers.

Paul said the following to the Romans:

(Rom 4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Combine "Abraham OUR Father" with "I ALSO am an Israelite", and you MADists wouldn't be so confused like you all are.

Also, the "pertaining to the flesh" part is another key factor.

 

[tetelestai]

books based

You're the epitome of "books based".

Everything you parrot didn't exist before John Nelson Darby wrote his books in the mid 1800's

 

[Lazy afternoon]

There was no such thing as a "Jew" in the days of Moses. The word "Jew" didn't exist, and the Israelites hadn't been split into two houses.

Moses was not a Jew.

Neither was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, and Elijah.

They were Israelites, but they were NEVER Jews.

Though in a spiritual sense they were.

Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

 

[intojoy]

No, not always. Sometime I'll post a thread and let it go its own coarse. Other times, I'll think on something and return to it.

Again, heir, the reason for a second thread (this one here) was towards voicing some of this over here for those who might not frequent the MAD forum.

While I made it a link here for the same reason I have added the summary on that link - because I want to save them in the MAD forum, as MAD is what they are based on.

Whether or not you agree with those last seven words

The complaint about a second thread is fruit of the weakness of faith in mad. A spirit of uncertainty and insecurity indeed.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

They lost their leader Johnny W. He disappeared without a trace.

Rumor is that he has been studying www.planetpreterist.com during his hiatus. Sound familiar?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The complaint about a second thread is fruit of the weakness of faith in mad. A spirit of uncertainty and insecurity indeed.

Did you know that you're annoying?

 

[Danoh]

The complaint about a second thread is fruit of the weakness of faith in mad. A spirit of uncertainty and insecurity indeed.

Very well, I'll see your mind reading and raise you mine - heir's "complaint" had nothing to do with a "weakness of faith in MAD," etc.

Rather; as she and I clearly went back and forth on this - we differed in our respective perception of why the need for a second thread.

Apparently, you've lost your reading glasses along with your teeth :rotfl:

 

[DAN P]

There was no such thing as a "Jew" in the days of Moses. The word "Jew" didn't exist, and the Israelites hadn't been split into two houses.

Moses was not a Jew.

Neither was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Aaron, Joshua, Samuel, and Elijah.

They were Israelites, but they were NEVER Jews.

Hi , and IF you say that the above were NOT Jews , where did they come from ?

In Gen 41:12 they were called Hebrews and even Paul calls himself a Hebrew in Phil 3:5 and was BLAMELESS under the Law of Moses !!:bang::bang:

dan p

 

[patrick jane]

Did you know that you're annoying?

John Nelson Darby:
I may now turn to the details; and first to the introductory verses, chapter 1:1-17. We must remember that the apostle had never been at Rome, and writes upon the ground of his universal mission to the Gentiles. Hence, while the personal salutations are very numerous, the epistle is very much of a treatise on the subject he refers to; what we may call the gospel fully reasoned out, the state of man, the place the law really held, and, as we have seen, the position the Jews, who had been nigh, had got into. He begins with his mission. He was separated to the gospel of God. He was an apostle by the calling of God.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jews became the term to describe all Israelites who kept the faith throughout the world.

Before the northern Kingdom was destroyed, most of the faithful had exited to the southern kingdom of Judah because the northern Kingdom was preventing if possible the believers from going to Jerusalem by their setting up the false priesthood and two other places of worship.

Sound familiar?

LA

 

[tetelestai]

Hi , and IF you say that the above were NOT Jews , where did they come from ?

They were Israelites.

The first time the word "Jews" is found in the King James Bible, the Jews are at war against Israel.

All Jews were Israelites, but not all Israelites were Jews.

Dispensationalists have to make all Israelites Jews in order for Darby's false teachings to work.

It's one of the reasons Dispensationalism is such a mess.

 

[tetelestai]

Before the northern Kingdom was destroyed, most of the faithful had exited to the southern kingdom of Judah

Yes, but it was a very small remnant that did so.

The vast majority of the Israelites that did not were scattered amongst the Gentiles. Hosea tells us these Israelites (who were NEVER Jews) would become as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore.

It was these Israelites who God divorced. God told them they would be "not a people", and that He would have "no mercy" on them.

However, God also said that one day in the future, they would receive mercy and become a people.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Yes, but it was a very small remnant that did so.

The vast majority of the Israelites that did not were scattered amongst the Gentiles. Hosea tells us these Israelites (who were NEVER Jews) would become as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore.

It was these Israelites who God divorced. God told them they would be "not a people", and that He would have "no mercy" on them.

However, God also said that one day in the future, they would receive mercy and become a people.

Their descendants would become Christians.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
Deu 30:9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[Interplanner]

The descendency does not matter when you use the NT to interpret the OT. Jn 1: God's children were not born of a man's will...