ECT Proper Understanding of Romans 11

Danoh

New member
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

And what did Peter preach to the rest?

As I will be moving on from posting on TOL in the next few months, I'm going to leave a full account of what's what as to my understanding on these things, at least for those with ears to hear.

Spoiler

Acts 3:

17. And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


And what did Peter later relate in 2 Peter 3 that Paul had written of in their copies of his writings concerning a delay in said promise:

13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other
scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Note - even as our beloved brother Paul also - in other words, as also in all his epistles - concerning this delay in their promise by God, in His long suffering.

What long suffering?

In Romans 9 Paul is talking about what has become of Israel's promise given their disobedience:

3. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4. Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


He relates it only appears God's promise has failed:

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

That right there is another study, let's move on, for now.

He then goes into how that God's delay of His wrath has made it appear to the unbelieving Israelite that God's promise has failed, but that such is not the case. That God is doing something else first:

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul then returns to his original point - that God is not through with Israel:

25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

He then returns to the issue of God's delay in His pending refiner's fire upon Israel:

27. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28. For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

That right there is Malachi 3's pending refiner's fire - 6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Paul then finishes all that with where things are now in God's long suffering:

30. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:

11. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
And what did Peter preach to the rest?

It's impossible to read Hosea 2:23 and 1 Peter 2:10 and not see that Hosea 2:23 was fulfilled with what Peter said in 1 Peter 2:10

(Hosea 2:23) ...I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

It's also impossible to claim Peter was addressing Jews because Hosea 2:23 makes it crystal clear that the prophecy is for the Israelites from the House of Israel only, and NOT the Jews.

However, Dispensationalism falls apart with these truths, so Dispensationalists such as yourself have to claim Peter was addressing Jews.

Dispensationalism is a mess.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Christ came out of Zion at His first coming according to Rev.ch 12 and turned ungodliness away from Jacob.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

27. For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Christ inaugurated the new covenant with Jacob and the whole house of Israel through His cross 2000 years ago.

28. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.


As concerning the gospel, the unbelievers of Israel, the children of the flesh, are your enemies, but as touching the election of Israel , they are the beloved of God for the sake of the promises made to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) and became Christians of the new covenant, who will inherit THE promise--

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



LA
 

Danoh

New member
It's impossible to read Hosea 2:23 and 1 Peter 2:10 and not see that Hosea 2:23 was fulfilled with what Peter said in 1 Peter 2:10

(Hosea 2:23) ...I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

It's also impossible to claim Peter was addressing Jews because Hosea 2:23 makes it crystal clear that the prophecy is for the Israelites from the House of Israel only, and NOT the Jews.

However, Dispensationalism falls apart with these truths, so Dispensationalists such as yourself have to claim Peter was addressing Jews.

Dispensationalism is a mess.

It is clear throughout that the term Jew came to represent all twelve tribes, first, as a derogatory, then as the norm.

But, we've gone over this before; have it your way.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
It is clear throughout that the term Jew came to represent all twelve tribes, first, as a derogatory, then as the norm.

Not in Hosea.

There is a clear distinction between a Jew from the House of Judah and an Israelite from the House of Israel all throughout the book of Hosea.

Like I said, it's impossible that Peter was addressing Jews, but you have to put your head in the sand and say that he was, otherwise your Dispensationalism falls apart.

Such is the life of a Dispensationalist (Darby follower)
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
So the Lord is sitting in Jersualem on the Temple mount and not the perversion known as Mosque? Interesting.

The Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on His throne in the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem that is above.

(Gal 4:26) But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

That Jerusalem in the Middle East where the Dome of the Rock exists represents slavery and bondage.

(Gal 4:25) Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
The Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on His throne in the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem that is above.

(Gal 4:26) But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

That Jerusalem in the Middle East where the Dome of the Rock exists represents slavery and bondage.

(Gal 4:25) Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

Show nuff.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
It is clear throughout that the term Jew came to represent all twelve tribes, first, as a derogatory, then as the norm.

But, we've gone over this before; have it your way.

I agree with this.

Tet would have us believe that a circumcised Gentile could be called a Jew, but a circumcised Israelite could not be called a Jew?
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Tet would have us believe that a circumcised Gentile could be called a Jew, but a circumcised Israelite could not be called a Jew?

Both Jer 31 and Ezk 37 make it clear that there is a distinction between the two houses of Israelites until the New Covenant is made.

You deny that. You claim they were all "Jews", and that there were not two houses.

Unless you want to claim that Jer 31 and Ezk 37 were fulfilled hundreds of years before Jesus was born, you are wrong.

The stick of Joseph and the stick of Judah were joined together when Christ Jesus shed His blood and made the New Covenant.

Up until the New Covenant was made, there was a distinction between Joseph and Judah (House of Israel & House of Judah).

However, you and Danoh can't have that happen because your Dispensationalism falls apart.
 

andyc

New member
Romans 11

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.


This is MAD in one verse.

The jealousy was supposed to make them desire to receive what the gentiles had received by grace, not works. You assume God made them jealous about something they could never receive.

That takes dumb to the nth degree.
 

andyc

New member
No he isn't you buffoon. All of Israel shall be saved is both houses, as told by Ezekiel. The two shall become one again and never separated. This has not happened.

There is no Jew or gentile. Just believe it and move on.
Believers are the Israel of God with circumcised hearts. Only those who are of the household of faith are saved.

But it you want to live in the old testament, that's up to you.
 

andyc

New member
The Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on His throne in the Kingdom of God in the New Jerusalem that is above.

(Gal 4:26) But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

That Jerusalem in the Middle East where the Dome of the Rock exists represents slavery and bondage.

(Gal 4:25) Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

:thumb:

They don't believe what they see in scripture, because their desire is to be controversial.
 

andyc

New member
I agree with this.

Tet would have us believe that a circumcised Gentile could be called a Jew, but a circumcised Israelite could not be called a Jew?

Jew *came to* mean "spiritual Israelite". It isn't clearly defined, which makes awkward to explain. However, those who remained loyal to David's throne, in a spiritual sense remained loyal to Christ. Therefore people of all tribes who stayed true to their Israelite roots, and subscribed to true worship in Jerusalem looking for the Messiah etc, are Jews in the spiritual sense.
This is why gentiles also become Jews in a spiritual sense, because the prescribed worship is now in Spirit to those who accept the messiah. The Jew in the physical sense no longer means anything where salvation is concerned.
 
Top