Ugh! go spoil someone else's fun.
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Ugh! go spoil someone else's fun.
God will bring His project/plan to pass with or without out. However, in His sovereignty, He has involved us in His plan. You bring baking to the neighbour, not God. You give a witness of the gospel, not an angel. Prayer is not talking to an invisible sky God, but is powerful and effective according to James.
God is distinct from His creation, but that does not mean we are passive puppets with no role (we are ambassadors for Christ; we are commanded to love, serve, reach out, feed the poor, etc....this is participation, is it not?).
What if God changes His mind about all of that? :idunno:
What do you mean? 35x it does say God changed His mind...this is consistent with His character and in response to changing contingencies.
God is faithful and will uphold His Word. If He changes His mind, it will be in wisdom, not in a fickle/capricious way.
Are you sure?
touched
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Why would anyone dawn a title of an open theist what is that beliefs meaning, that the bible means what they want it to i don't grasp the value of the label?
I don't know and don't ask God because according to open theism God isn't sure.
genuineoriginal
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Open Theism does not mean that the interpretation of the Bible is open.
What it means is that God and men are not constrained by a settled future where God determined how each person would fall short of the glory of God before He created the heaven and earth.
All men fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23
Straw man again. God knows everything knowable and is infinitely intelligent, ignorant of nothing.
The issue is the nature or reality, not whether God knows everything (He does). By His choice, there are possibilities and actualities. He knows reality as it is. A deterministic universe is not what He created so this results in lack of EDF due to LFW.
genuineoriginal
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So, are you saying God determined that King David had to commit adultery even though He said, "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
No. I was just making the point that we all fall short.
You said;
We all fall short because we are born with a sin nature. The only way we can not fall short is to be in the Messiah. We still sin after that but we "don't fall short".
As far as personal sin and the Omniscience of God. I believe He can know what we may or may not do but that doesn't necessarily mean He needs to know.
"God knows everything knowable" why can't you just say God knows everything He needs to know? How do you know what "God's reality" is?
rainee
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Dear Open Theists, or whoever may think God is stuck in time:
Although good points are so completely made by you, I have accidentally found what should clear some things up about time when trying to show that the ancient Greek Philosophers couldn't even have conceived or guessed what we have been blessed to figure out.
Do you see the pic of the spiral of time in the OP?
Lovely yes?
But actually we are in a wheel inside a wheel, aren't we?
Yes, like a watch - maybe like the Bible verse - I don't know.
But we are on Earth, which is rotating and revolving in a system which is also moving round.
We talk about time - but have we really considered what we are talking about when we talk about motion?
How many levels of whizzing and spinning 'round are we apart of? I don't know. The Monty Python Galaxy Song started me thinking.
Not that Science knows accurately yet all that the song states -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DjMlpTT4nE&feature=related
but it really is a thought provoker when you see how God may have created time -
We may be part of a huge gigantic clock type thing when we talk about the universe. It may be quite physically what makes time for us.
And the Six Day Creation may have been Him - setting up the Clock (as well as the creatures and us and all the things He cares about.)
Now who thinks if God made a big clock works He couldn't go into it? That is not logical - and do not think any poor Greek Philosophers can save you! They would have died if they knew what you knew about motion and space from shock!
genuineoriginal
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The point I was making was not that each person falls short of the glory of God. That was a given.
The point was that classical theism says that God planned out the exact methods that would be used to violate His verbal commandments. Classical theism says that God planned the methods used by each serial killer in every murder. Classical theism says that God planned who would commit adultery and what justifications they would use.
Does God have the power to forget?
Does God have the power to close His eyes?
genuineoriginal
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You made a mistake.
Open Theists believe God is moving in time.
It is classical theists that think He is stuck.
I never said God plans out peoples sins. What I do say is that He transcends time. He isn't bound by time or peoples actions. He calls people to be obedient if we aren't then we pay now for disobedience because our actions affect our life and those around us.
God has the power to do anything He wants. He can choose to not remember. I don't know if He can close His eyes or not. Is that in the Bible?
genuineoriginal
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Show two or three places in the Bible where God went back in time and changed what already happened. If you cannot do that, then you have no reason to claim that God transcends time.
As soon as God chooses to not remember something, He is no longer Omniscient according to how classical theism understands Omniscient.
If a righteous man can close his eyes from seeing evil, why can't the righteous God do the same?
Isaiah 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; |
I never said He went back in time. I already asked that question on this thread. Why would He need to go back in time? did He forget to do something? When I say God transcends time I mean He was here before time began and He will be here forever.
Wrong, if God chooses to forget something He can also choose to remember it. When anyone chooses to forget something it doesn't mean it never happened. It means it is AS IF it never happened.
I already said He can do anything He wants.
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