Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[genuineoriginal]

Guys, I don't know if this helps the discussion here, but I just saw in a Wall Street Journal article that Tim Tebow counted to infinity... twice.

I can top that.

one infinity...two infinity...three infinity

See, I just counted two infinity and beyond!


(I'm done...back to the regularly scheduled program)

 

[Lon]

Guys, I don't know if this helps the discussion here, but I just saw in a Wall Street Journal article that Tim Tebow counted to infinity... twice.

I took the second part here tongue-in-cheek but excellent article find B-man!

 

[SovereigntyIsGods]

God's sovereignty is only limited by himself

God's sovereignty is only limited by open theists.

 

[sky.]

God's sovereignty is only limited by open theists.

Go after em tiger.

 

[godrulz]

God's sovereignty is only limited by open theists.

We do not limit His sovereignty, but understand it biblically, not philosophically. You wrongly assume that meticulous control/omnicausality is the only possible understanding of sovereignty.

Read this, I dare you (you simply beg the question with a wrong assumption leading to wrong conclusions): http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-theism/doesn’t-the-open-view-demean-god’s-sovereignty/

An omnicompetent God simply does not need to be omnicausal (the latter totally problematic for a coherent explanation of evil).

 

[DFT_Dave]

God is Spirit, and Spirit is non-physical. God's Spirit pervades the physical universe but is not limited to its structure or confines...or so I have read.

The Spirit of God cannot be in the world, and not in the world, at the same time.

God cannot be timeless/not in time, and in time, at the same time.

God cannot exist, and not exist, at the same time.

If logical statements apply only to us and our world and not to God then there is nothing anyone can say that can be demonstrated to be right or wrong about him.

--Dave

 

[sky.]

The Spirit of God cannot be in the world, and not in the world, at the same time.

God cannot be timeless/not in time, and in time, at the same time.

God cannot exist, and not exist, at the same time.

If logical statements apply only to us and our world and not to God then there is nothing anyone can say that can be demonstrated to be right or wrong about him.

--Dave

Matthew 19:26

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

oly:

 

[DFT_Dave]

God's sovereignty is only limited by open theists.

If God is sovereign as you say, then it is by his sovereignty that we are open theists.

--Dave

 

[sky.]

If God is sovereign as you say, then it is by his sovereignty that we are open theists.

--Dave

Imagine that God gave up His sovereignty to open theists.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Matthew 19:26

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

oly:

All things cannot be possible, and be not possible, for God at the same time.

--Dave

 

[Paulos]

The Spirit of God cannot be in the world, and not in the world, at the same time.

God cannot be timeless/not in time, and in time, at the same time.

God cannot exist, and not exist, at the same time.

If logical statements apply only to us and our world and not to God then there is nothing anyone can say that can be demonstrated to be right or wrong about him.

I don't think we disagree so much as I think I'm having difficulty expressing my views clearly and understandably. Let me try this. Do you agree with the following:

1) God created the physical universe.
2) God is not a physical Being.

If you agree with both of the above points, then you believe the same thing I do.

 

[DFT_Dave]

I don't think we disagree so much as I think I'm having difficulty expressing my views clearly and understandably. Let me try this. Do you agree with the following:

1) God created the physical universe.
2) God is not a physical Being.

If you agree with both of the above points, then you believe the same thing I do.

But, if both 1 and 2 are true does it follow that God experiences time since there was a time in God before he brought the physical world into existence?

--Dave

 

[Lighthouse]

Take a joke. ghost is the worst offender (I am not the one slandering everyone).

:loser:

You've misunderstood, Lighthouse. On the contrary, I say that there are two things: time and eternity. Eternity is identical to the nature of God (as such, to say that something is eternal is merely to say that it is not in time; since we can't know God as He is directly, to affirm that God is eternal is actually to deny something unworthy of Him). God, however, is the Eternal Exemplar. God is imitable in an infinite number of possible ways. From all eternity, God chooses that He should be imitated by a created order in a certain way (namely, by the creation of this world). In creating the world, God creates time. Creation, you see, is a moving image of the Eternal Exemplar. That's what time is. It's a moving image of eternity.

1. You're are the one with the misunderstanding, of your own argument. The settled view posits that time is simultaneous. Not that it is linear, nor that it is circular, but that it is all happening at the same time; all at once, over and over again. Or, as the Doctor once put it, "...wibbly wobbly..."
2. You are starting from a foregone conclusion that eternal = not in time, therefore you are begging the question. Time is eternal because God is eternal; time is an attribute of God.

before time

Oxymoron

God did not manipulate time. He manipulated the sun.

Actually He manipulated the Earth.

Just saying.

For the record: the specific problem that AMR is bringing up here is from De Interpretatione. Aristotle asserts that future contingents don't exist yet in order to avoid logical determinism. If it is the case, Aristotle asserts, that if tomorrow there either will be a sea battle or there will not be, then necessarily, there will be a sea battle or not, which seems bizarre. Those of you who are interested can probably find this work ("On Interpretation" in English) online. It's not a very lengthy treatise. As I recall, it's less than 30 pages. Closer to 15-20.

In any case, I'll get to Mr. Enyart's objections in the other thread.

Schrodinger's contingent?

 

[Paulos]

But, if both 1 and 2 are true does it follow that God experiences time since there was a time in God before he brought the physical world into existence?

If God experiences His creation, and time is an aspect of His creation, then God can experience time. That is my assumption, anyway.

However, 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4 do seem to me to indicate that God is not particularly bound by our perception of time. I certainly cannot say that the next 1000 years are like yesterday to me.

 

[touched]

Why do i feel more like God is on trial here than the intelligence of man?

 

[DFT_Dave]

If God experiences His creation, and time is an aspect of His creation, then God can experience time. That is my assumption, anyway.

However, 2 Peter 3:8 and Psalm 90:4 do seem to me to indicate that God is not particularly bound by our perception of time. I certainly cannot say that the next 1000 years are like yesterday to me.

That's because you're finite.

--Dave

 

[sky.]

Why do i feel more like God is on trial here than the intelligence of man?

Because open theists think God's plan is dependent on their participation.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Because open theists think God's plan is dependent on their participation.

Which plan are you talking about?

When God made His plan to destroy the earth with the flood, the plan was not dependent on any man's participation.
When God made His plan to save Noah, the plan was dependent on Noah building the ark.

 

[sky.]

Which plan are you talking about?

When God made His plan to destroy the earth with the flood, the plan was not dependent on any man's participation.
When God made His plan to save Noah, the plan was dependent on Noah building the ark.

Well now lets see. God has one overall plan and that is to take all believers with Him to eternity. The only plan we are a part of and the only one we can be obedient to is now. We can also try to prepare the ones who come after us to be prepared for their generation as well. But hey...all you "brainiacs" have it all figured out in your own mind so who cares.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Well now lets see. God has one overall plan and that is to take all believers with Him to eternity. The only plan we are a part of and the only one we can be obedient to is now. We can also try to prepare the ones who come after us to be prepared for their generation as well.

God has a plan, and many are called to be part of that plan.
He will not take "all believers" with Him to eternity.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.​

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.​