pre existence

[Jacob]

The KJV of Ephesians 3:9 states:

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

People like to read into that and say the Jesus Christ created the world.

However, that is not what it says.

Who does it say created?

a. Jesus Christ

b. "God, who created all things"

Who does it say that God created all things by?

It says Jesus Christ, however, and this is very important, the words "by Jesus Christ" do not appear in the texts.

Those words to not appear in the texts. Somehow they did end up in the KJV and some others but not all versions include those words because those versions honestly handled the textual evidence.

For instance:

ASV and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;

AMP and to make plain [to everyone] the plan of the mystery [regarding the uniting of believing Jews and Gentiles into one body] which [until now] was kept hidden through the ages in [the mind of] God who created all things.

CSB and to shed light for all about the administration of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things.

CEB God sent me to reveal the secret plan that had been hidden since the beginning of time by God, who created everything.

CJB and of letting everyone see how this secret plan is going to work out. This plan, kept hidden for ages by God, the Creator of everything,

CEV God, who created everything, wanted me to help everyone understand the mysterious plan that had always been hidden in his mind.

DARBY and to enlighten all [with the knowledge of] what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things,

DLNT and enlighten everyone to see what is the stewardship of the mystery having been hidden from the past ages in God, the One having created all things,

DRA And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:

ERV And God gave me the work of telling all people about the plan for his secret truth. That secret truth has been hidden in him since the beginning of time. He is the one who created everything.

EHV and to enlighten everyone about the administration of this mystery. In past ages this mystery remained hidden in God, who created all things.

ESV and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things,

ESVUK and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

EXB And God gave me the work of ·telling [making plain; enlightening] all people about the ·plan for [administration of; C the same word translated “work” in v. 2] his ·secret [mystery], which has been hidden ·in [or by] him ·since the beginning of time [L from the ages]. He is the One who created everything.

That is a partial list from Bible Gateway.

Overwhelmingly, the versions do not include those words.

Why not? because they do not belong there because there is no textual evidence for them.

Why would have some included them? Because they read Colossians 1:15-19, especially verses 16-17.

Rather than get into another long discussion about how to rightly divide Colossians, for now I submit that it is sufficient to note that Ephesians 3:9 when correctly stated according to the texts, states that God created, not Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that God is the Creator.

 

[oatmeal]

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that God is the Creator.

Good for you!

A person who believes the scripture!

 

[oatmeal]

You've been duped by the WTS. I prefer the ideas of SHEOL, HADES, PARADISE AND GEHENNA:




This is also written in: Sheol is NOT the grave:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hades.htm

Yes, queber is the actual gravesite, but sheol has a larger sense, as in gravedom, where the grave rules because those in a queber are dead, not alive.

 

[freelight]

Sophia...the way of wisdom.....

Sophia...the way of wisdom.....

im not familiar with the modern Essene movement other than gregg braden and what he teaches seems a bit different than what i have read in my own DSS studies. not that he is a bad teacher. i always wondered where they got their Essene info from being as that movement started before the Qumran find.

Gregg Braden has some good stuff, - I refer to segments within the broader Essene-Nazarene Community and associated schools, which include judeo-christian and a blend of eastern esoteric teachings.

A nexus of ancient/modern Essenic teachings -

~ The Nazarean Way ~

The Esoteric Teachings of Jesus and the Nazarean Essenes

One gospel I enjoy, which expands on a more humane Essene like Jesus is 'The Gospel of the holy 12',....I agree with much of the spiritual teachings within it, although I cannot vouch for its ancient textual claims, it appears to be a patchwork of some older teachings from the gospels, some non-canonical sources and free inspiration of the scribes who wrote it. On this level, it might be in the same camp of the 'Essene Gospel of Peace', by EDMOND BORDEAUX SZEKELY. - I've only read portions of his works, but they have textual claims as well, but these manuscripts are no longer extant, so cant be proven as far as 'authenticity' goes.

i like what Origen teaches on rebirth and IMO it syncs with what i have read in the DSS, gospel of Thomas and the parable teachings of Yashua.

Yes, Origen is awesome, so is Clement, they kept their more greek-pagan sentiments and liberal philosophical dispositions, while the latter was more 'gnostic' in orientation, emphasizing spiritual knowledge, even calling the deeper disciple a 'gnostic', but this was a generic term for one having true gnosis. In this sense gnosticism is a true path, when genuine knowledge of 'God' is sought for.

We have a gospel of Thomas thread here, and are still doing commentary on the verses - u can read thru the thread and commentary so far if u like, we are on about saying 50. - I would also add that my recent commentaries on the divine feminine and the Holy Spirit as the feminine aspect or personification of 'God' also resonate with other Thomasian apocryphal works, and it is a shame that western dogmatism has sought to slowly oppress the divine feminine, without honoring 'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother',...those interested can see my fomer posts and blog entries on this subject.

What really matters is the truth that is eternal, universal and omniactive, for it is by these laws and principles that souls progress and may go forward towards God-perfection, and love is the WAY. If souls must re-embody or may choose to undergo different life-experiences to learn their lessons, grow, evolve, become perfected...then so be it. But souls may also continue to advance in the spirit worlds as well, without re-incarnating.....EITHER WAY....the path forward for souls is granted by divine providence, and by divine love, wisdom and will....is secure in God.

 

[jaybird]

Gregg Braden has some good stuff, - I refer to segments within the broader Essene-Nazarene Community and associated schools, which include judeo-christian and a blend of eastern esoteric teachings.

A nexus of ancient/modern Essenic teachings -

~ The Nazarean Way ~

i already had the Nazarene site bookmarked, found it several years back. "blend of eastern esoteric teachings" this idea makes me think of Alexandria back when it was one of the spiritual capitals of the world, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Druids, Hindus, etc all coming togetther and sharing ideas, not trying to prove eqach other wrong but learn from one another.

The Esoteric Teachings of Jesus and the Nazarean Essenes

One gospel I enjoy, which expands on a more humane Essene like Jesus is 'The Gospel of the holy 12',....I agree with much of the spiritual teachings within it, although I cannot vouch for its ancient textual claims, it appears to be a patchwork of some older teachings from the gospels, some non-canonical sources and free inspiration of the scribes who wrote it. On this level, it might be in the same camp of the 'Essene Gospel of Peace', by EDMOND BORDEAUX SZEKELY. - I've only read portions of his works, but they have textual claims as well, but these manuscripts are no longer extant, so cant be proven as far as 'authenticity' goes.

Jesus had secret teachings, He said they were given to the 12, and the pharisees had hid them. so many times when you go looking for these teachings you get mocked and ridiculed.

Yes, Origen is awesome, so is Clement, they kept their more greek-pagan sentiments and liberal philosophical dispositions, while the latter was more 'gnostic' in orientation, emphasizing spiritual knowledge, even calling the deeper disciple a 'gnostic', but this was a generic term for one having true gnosis. In this sense gnosticism is a true path, when genuine knowledge of 'God' is sought for.

We have a gospel of Thomas thread here, and are still doing commentary on the verses - u can read thru the thread and commentary so far if u like, we are on about saying 50. - I would also add that my recent commentaries on the divine feminine and the Holy Spirit as the feminine aspect or personification of 'God' also resonate with other Thomasian apocryphal works, and it is a shame that western dogmatism has sought to slowly oppress the divine feminine, without honoring 'God' as both 'Father' and 'Mother',...those interested can see my fomer posts and blog entries on this subject.

What really matters is the truth that is eternal, universal and omniactive, for it is by these laws and principles that souls progress and may go forward towards God-perfection, and love is the WAY. If souls must re-embody or may choose to undergo different life-experiences to learn their lessons, grow, evolve, become perfected...then so be it. But souls may also continue to advance in the spirit worlds as well, without re-incarnating.....EITHER WAY....the path forward for souls is granted by divine providence, and by divine love, wisdom and will....is secure in God.

truth is just that and it can be held in the minority of one.

 

[ttruscott]

Who does it say that God created all things by?

It says Jesus Christ, however, and this is very important, the words "by Jesus Christ" do not appear in the texts.

So, there is still
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. that we must deal with...

 

[ttruscott]

i like what Origen teaches on rebirth and IMO it syncs with what i have read in the DSS, gospel of Thomas and the parable teachings of Yashua.

The historical fact remains that Origen was strongly opposed to gnosticism and only used pagan ideas to try to teach Christian concepts.

Origen lived through a turbulent period of the Christian Church, when persecution was wide-spread and little or no doctrinal consensus existed among the various regional churches. In this environment, Gnosticism flourished, and Origen was the first truly philosophical thinker to turn his hand not only to a refutation of Gnosticism, but to offer an alternative Christian system that was more rigorous and philosophically respectable than the mythological speculations of the various Gnostic sects. Origen was also an astute critic of the pagan philosophy of his era, yet he also learned much from it, and adapted its most useful and edifying teachings to a grand elucidation of the Christian faith.

I read in http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/reincar/re-imo.htm

After the original generations of Christians, we find the early Church Fathers, such as Justin Martyr (AD 100-l65), St. Clement of Alexandria ( AD 150-220), and Origen ( AD 185-254) teaching the pre-existence of souls, taking up reincarnation or one or another aspect of reimbodiment. Examples are scattered through Origen's works, especially Contra Celsum (1, xxxii), where he asks: "Is it not rational that souls should be introduced into bodies, in accordance with their merits and previous deeds...?"

People suppose that by asking this question Origen must have been referring to the merits and previous deeds of a previous life on earth when it is probable that he was referring to the merits of previous deeds in the spirit world, probably Sheol, where every person created in GOD's image lived before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw Job 38:7 as attested to in Rom 1:20 as a proof which erases all excuses for not worshipping YHWH as our GOD. His suggestion that all created spirits who fell then 'became' bodies would support the fact that the spirit came previous to the physical:

What are now souls (psukhê) began as minds, and through boredom or distraction grew "cold" (psukhesthai) as they moved away from the "divine warmth" (On First Principles 2.8.3). Thus departing from God, they came to be clothed in bodies, at first of "a fine ethereal and invisible nature," but later, as souls fell further away from God, their bodies changed "from a fine, ethereal and invisible body to a body of a coarser and more solid state. The purity and subtleness of the body with which a soul is enveloped depends upon the moral development and perfection of the soul to which it is joined. Origen states that there are varying degrees of subtleness even among the celestial and spiritual bodies" (Tripolitis 1978, p. 106).

I contend that the elect holy angels stayed in their first estate by their own free will while those, both elect and non-elect, who chose to be evil (not just got bored) were flung to the earth and sown into the world of humans by the Son of Man and the devil, Matt 13: 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom.The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

 

[freelight]

trans-forming souls................

trans-forming souls................

The historical fact remains that Origen was strongly opposed to gnosticism and only used pagan ideas to try to teach Christian concepts.


I read in http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/reincar/re-imo.htm

People suppose that by asking this question Origen must have been referring to the merits and previous deeds of a previous life on earth when it is probable that he was referring to the merits of previous deeds in the spirit world, probably Sheol, where every person created in GOD's image lived before the creation of the physical universe which we all saw [FONT=&]Job 38:7[/FONT] as attested to in [FONT=&]Rom 1:20[/FONT] as a proof which erases all excuses for not worshipping YHWH as our GOD. His suggestion that all created spirits who fell then 'became' bodies would support the fact that the spirit came previous to the physical:



I contend that the elect holy angels stayed in their first estate by their own free will while those, both elect and non-elect, who chose to be evil (not just got bored) were flung to the earth and sown into the world of humans by the Son of Man and the devil, Matt 13: 37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom.The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.

Reincarnation is a wonderful doctrine, but many different ways to consider its 'mechanics', and variations, and also that it relates as very similar to 'resurrection',...it is the soul re-embodying, taking on a new 'form'. One can debate or expound on the 'metaphysics' and 'cosmetics' invoved

Origen however in another place when referencing to Elijah and John the baptist DENIED this being an example of 'reincarnation' in one of his commentaries, so he might have changed his mind at some points during his philosophizing on this subject. Who knows. In any case,....I dont see a problem with some form or concept of 'rebirth' in one's theology, since both 'reincarnation' and 'resurrection' are the same thing, differing only on details involded in the 'process'. (those having issue with this are mostly rigid orthodox christian fundamentalists who are in mental 'grid-lock' on doctrinal issues, creed and dogma).

All life, salvation and transformation of the soul are still according to laws that govern spiritual progress and evolution. - if this includes the soul or spirit re-embodying, taking on new forms, or even personality-formats...then so be it. All energy, mind and spirit is subject to transformation, reformation.