ttruscott
Well-known member
Day 1 of our existence?
Day 1 of the existence of the physical universe?
Day 1 of our life as a human?
pre existence
- Thread starter jaybird
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Day 1 of our existence?
Day 1 of the existence of the physical universe?
Day 1 of our life as a human?
ttruscott
Well-known member
Sure...
ttruscott
Well-known member
Yes Origen had pagan and Platonic influences, his Christology was horrible, but they threw out the one thing of value he suggested...our pre-conception existence. They certainly had no trouble with the paganism of Aristotle's omniscience for instance which has led to great blasphemy.
What is a firm Trinitarian?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
EXACTLY!
There are some who refuse to take full responsibility for their own sins so they must blame their behavior on something else or someone else!
ttruscott
Well-known member
Firm in my acceptance of the ideology of the Trinity...
What is that? What does that mean?
iouae
Well-known member
Mankind is born "estranged" from God. We have to get to know Him, and that takes a few years.
Our nature is OUR nature, or human nature. It is not from Adam that we get it, but from God who created us with human nature. It was He who created us ignorant and selfish. That's how babies are born, with a small head which triples in brain size. But it is ignorant or a tabula rasa. And selfishness is what helps babies survive. They cry when they need something. As adults we have to learn not to cry when we need something, especially men.
Being born "by nature children of wrath[/B], even as the rest" means that humans are born, by default, destined to die, just as the rest of creation". We are given our threescore and ten years here on earth to change that state from being children of wrath, to being children of God and immortal saints.
If anything more than poetic writing, David is referring to his mothers "sin" rather than Adam or Eve's.
God tried making perfect beings, the angels, and we know how that turned out with 1/3 permanently bent, through own choice, yet living almost forever.
So now God IS making us born in the slop, like pigs, and He cleans us up through Christ. If Adam did not have this bent and yearning for slop, Adam and Eve would have not been pulled in the first place. But even the original two had a love for slop, like pigs do.
Nowhere does the Bible say God is omniscient. This word is not in the Bible.
And putting 1 John 2:20 and 1 John 3:20 together, we are just as omniscient as God by this false logic.
Just like Trump can look at a swamp and see a Trump Tower standing there, that is how God knows the future. He works to bring it about. No omniscience there.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
delete
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Day 1 when God created the Heavens.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I reject that anyone who accepts that YHWH creates evil people has any spiritual truth to tell.
The scripture denies this...in Gen 25:21 Isaac prayed to the Lord on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The Lord answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the Lord.
23 The Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
the word jostled as if being crowded is not the meaning of the Hebrew but a misdirection from the true meaning - to crush each other to pieces. They were indeed trying to kill each other over the rights of becoming the first born. Not quite a tabla rasa, eh? Of course if the scripture means nothing then everything is up for sale....
And how about luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, a little more aware than rasa I'd say.
The people GOD made in HIS own image as completely perfect as able to choose to become perfectly eternally holy and elect OR to chose to become perfectly eternally evil. Everyone of GOD's creation could perfectly fulfill HIS purpose of HIS creating them - to be HIS holy Bride by their free will. To marry a bride without her free will is a rape, not a marriage. Some rejected that purpose and some accepted it, never sinned and began to work for HIM in heaven as the elect holy angels.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Ok... but not before?
iouae
Well-known member
That is like saying I will only accept people who espouse my viewpoint. What is the point of that?
In quoting how the babies were fighting each other in the womb, you actually are supporting what I said which was "Our nature is OUR nature, or human nature. It is not from Adam that we get it, but from God who created us with human nature. It was He who created us ignorant and selfish."
And this womb activity is the exception. God was causing it to announce a prophecy. This exception cannot be used to create a rule. Babies in wombs are blank slates. But if God wants them to fight and be born holding the other's heel as a metaphor, He has a right to do that. This again proves that it is God in this case, giving the babies their nature, in the womb.
Again, taking an exception, and a God involved miracle to create some kind of rule, is going to convince nobody. Look at any newborn baby. They are as they are - a blank slate, crying to have their needs met. And this survival selfishness, is NOT A SIN. It is exactly as God designed it, or babies would die.
Only when old enough to make deliberate wrong choices does a child become a sinner, by choice. This is exactly how Adam and Eve became sinners, how Lucifer became a sinner, and how we all become sinners.
Please translate this paragraph. It is gibberish to me.
ttruscott
Well-known member
WoW...<sigh>
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes that's right. Only the trinity existed before.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Thank you for your patience. I too believe this but have never heard of anyone else sharing it... I take it by the heavens you might mean Spirits and the place of the spirits ? since the Sons of GOD were there to sing HIS praises at the creation of the physical universe implying they were already created?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes on day one when God created the Heavens (plural) He only created two out of the three Heavens that Paul later describes, because on day two God creates the firmament or expanse between the waters which God also called heaven but in the singular. On day four God created the sun, moon and star which he placed in the Heavens (plural):
Gen1
14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
Now the spiritual Heaven God created on day 1 included all the angels and humans but the humans were only created in their spiritual form, they did not have the physical bodies yet, that we have now. The second heaven God created on day 1 was the physical space which was connected to and part of the spiritual heaven, however this did not have any matter in it till day 4, apart from the Earth.
At the fall the Spiritual Heaven and the physical heavens split apart from each other and the spiritual supernatural light that God created on day one, that 'saturated' the physical heavens vanished from Adam's sight. I believe this light was 'saturating' Adam and Eve's physical bodies and I believe that it also 'projecting' supernatural clothing because when Jesus resurrected he was wearing clothes (He didn't get clothes from somewhere else). When Christ resurrected that light returned via Jesus. Eventually when God makes a new Heaven and Earth that light will return to the World:
Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.
So yes I believe all humans were created on day 1 and on day 6 God breathed Adam into his physical body, because Adam was 'chosen' to be the first of all the humans to be put on the Earth to be tested.
ttruscott
Well-known member
I have never tried to put the creation of the spirits in GOD's image into the Genesis timeline of creation, so I thank you for this effort. It is very similar to my friend's thesis.
I contend that the first creation was the creation of the Spirits in GOD's image who all had a free will (some rebelled so they must have had a free will) before the creation of the physical universe as they were there and saw that proof of HIS deity and power Rom 2:20, and sang HIS praises, Job 38:7. I have always called that 'place' they resided, a place of spirits without physicality, to be Sheol but your use of the word 'heaven' to describe it does seem to have an advantage as Sheol is in the center of the Earth so unless it was moved there, it could not have existed before the construction of the earth.
I also have been convinced for many years that there is only one 'race' of beings in the spirit world:
- angels are those beings created in the image of GOD who resisted all temptation to rebel and stayed true to their faith in YHWH as their GOD and did not sin.
- The demonic angels are those who rejected YHWH's unproven claims to deity as the lies of a false god, including HIS promises of election and salvation by faith in HIM and HIS Son, self creating themselves as eternally evil.
- The sinful elect are those who accepted YHWH's claims to deity and HIS promise of salvation, being accepted as HIS elect, but then rejected HIS call for them to come out from among the condemned reprobate demons in their hearts (ie, to denounce all love, friendship or loyalty to any demon in favour of being loyal to YHWH) causing them to become as evil as the reprobate and needing the promise of salvation to be fulfilled in them. Their choice also caused the postponement of the judgment so they too would not be destroyed with the judgment upon all evil, Matt 13:29.
- Then the physical universe was created (which everyone saw) and all sinners (and only sinners) were sent to Prison Earth to abide in Sheol until they are sown into the world, Matt 13:36-39.
Very interesting. Since the 'light' discussed in Genesis "Let there be light!" doesn't seem to have ordinary physical properties, I concluded it must be in the nature of a spiritual quality as in GOD is LIGHT. Then I decided that a light that could be separated from the darkness (???) made most sense if it referred to the faith of those who accepted HIS deity and promises being separated from those who rejected HIM by putting their faith in themselves, by the method of finalizing our decisions about where we would put our faith, in HIM or against HIM, ie, it describes the separation of those faithful elect from the Satanic rebellion and the rebellion of some of the elect.
Yes... although I believe he was sent here as a sinful elect to be redeemed, not tested (which happened in heaven before the creation of the earth) to which a hint is given in the descriptions of the use of the law (commandments) as being given to sinners to open their eyes to their sin: Romans 7:7... I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. and Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin. Thus Adam and Eve were here to have their eyes opened to their sinfulness so they could be ashamed and repent of their idolatry of their friend the serpent over their GOD, YHWH...
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
This is great to talk with someone who has worked all this out too. I didn't want to say but yes we were all tested in Heaven before day 6 which was when Adam (and Eve) was chosen to go first, but Earth too was and is a test, because there was a rule (don't eat from the two trees). This second test we know all about and from the one simple rule developed hundreds/thousands of rules till Christ came and changed everything to simple faith or no faith. Let me tell you something else I know more about the first test in Heaven too. Do you?
Additionally I also believe that the rest of the humans stayed in Heaven and were born into the World one at a time as Adam and Eve's descendants. As each person came to the end of there life on Earth they were sent to Hell because the only way to Heaven is through faith in Jesus because we are all sinful and could not enter Heaven with sin. (Hell is made up of three separate area/parts, we can talk about Hell too if you wish). Eventually Heaven was emptied and Jesus was sent last of all as this verse states:
Haggai 2
18‘From this day on, from this twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, give careful thought to the day when the foundation of the Lord’s temple was laid. Give careful thought: 19 Is there yet any seed left in the barn? Until now, the vine and the fig tree, the pomegranate and the olive tree have not borne fruit.
“ ‘From this day on I will bless you.’ ”
The second temples foundations were laid on the 24th of Month nine, this day was prophetic to Jesus conception which happened on 13th December 4BC at sunset:
http://torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?PYM=Y-4M9
Hanukkah was a prophetic celebration of Jesus conception. Jesus was born on the 11th September 3BC. We can talk more about that too if you did not know this.
Jesus was the last of the seeds of mankind to enter the World, none of the Human race managed to bare fruit but because of Jesus' sinless life He was the first to bare fruit and became the first fruits of the harvest of mankind's souls:
1 Corinthians 15:23
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.