jaybird
New member
the church went on a crusade against the idea around the 600s and also officially labeled it heresy. today if you bring it up around mainstreamers you get attacked for even entertaining such an idea.
pre existence
- Thread starter jaybird
- Start date
the church went on a crusade against the idea around the 600s and also officially labeled it heresy. today if you bring it up around mainstreamers you get attacked for even entertaining such an idea.
marhig
Well-known member
To be honest I've never heard of this before, do you mean that some people don't believe that we existed before we were born? Can you explain what you mean? Thanks for clarifying this.
And if you don't mind letting me know what do you believe? Thanks
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jaybird
New member
most churches dont talk about it, and IMO most churches make a point to avoid the subject.
i believe i existed before. we are created with breath from the Most High, when we die that breath goes back to where it came from, the breath did not come from a state of non existence.
marhig
Well-known member
I believe that we existed before too, I didn't realise that people believed differently to that.
Thanks for replying.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I see. I take these verses more literally. I have noticed with my own theology that I have gradually become more of a Bible literalist over the years.
marhig
Well-known member
Ah right, so I'm just wondering, if you're a literalist, why do you believe in reincarnation if it says that it is appointed to men to die once? Wouldn't you then believe this to be literal? I've only just heard today that many believe that we didn't exist before birth, I've never heard that before, I believe that we did. I don't believe that we just existed from nothing at birth. I see the Bible very differently to mainstream Christianity. I see it also has a spiritual meaning, I don't see it as all literal. And Jesus said those who have ears to hear, hear, and those who have ears to hear listen to what the Spirit says to the churches. This shows us that the are deeper meanings in the scriptures.
I see that Jesus spoke in parables, and we can also see that the rivers of living water is the Holy Spirit as explained in the Bible. So the Bible is full of deeper meanings like this. Revelation is Johns revelation that he received by Christ through the Spirit. The book of Revelation is very deep, it's not all literal.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
If you have read all of my long post #55 then you would see why I do take Hebrews 9:27 literally.
I don't take everything literally in the Bible but certainly more than when I first became a believer.
ttruscott
Well-known member
You may have gathered that I am not anti-reincarnation for the reprobate. It is the nations that claim to have experienced and so proven the whole past life reincarnation business and I see no need not to take them at their word just because the Jewish / Christian experience has not been the same....though I do shudder at the blatant evil of so many of the modern 1800s+ supporters of this doctrine. BUT I also believe in their being doomed already, their fates were set as self chosen pre-earth, so there can be no rehabilitative or redemptive value to multiple lives.
People are not born as human to decide their eternal fates but only to redeem the elect who have chosen to be sinful thereby forcing the postponement of the judgement against the reprobate. When the last sinful elect is made holy then the harvest. The problem arises when all of mankind is treated from the point of view of only one group, either the people of the kingdom or the people of the evil one, Matt 13:38, without acknowledgement there are two types of humans, those saved already and those condemned already, Jn 3:18....and not counting that there is a third type of person, not human but created in the image of GOD, the holy elect angels. One creation, three separate groups based upon the free will decisions of those created in HIS image.
The rise in population, especially as a rise in the wicked while the church is declining due to the saints being purified and waiting in heaven, does indeed support their being re-seeded into the world....but not to hear the gospel again which will do them no good at all as they are too addicted to evil to be swayed by the truth. Rom 1 tells us their love for evil made them even repress the proof of YHWH's divinity and power v20, the creation of the physical universe! But this would not be their first nor only exposure to the gospel as I believe that the gospel was preached to all those created in HIS image in the Spirit world as the call for all created people to put their faith in HIM as their GOD and in HIS Son as their saviour if they should ever sin: Col 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
'The problem of mankind being treated from the point of view of only one group, either the people of the kingdom or the people of the evil one without acknowledgement there are two types of humans, those saved already and those condemned already and not counting that there is a third type of person, not human but created in the image of GOD, the holy elect angels.'
This problem is eliminated if you believe God has created a paradox where free will and fate co-exist where we can't know for sure what anyone's fate is and when you think about it this it true! Only god knows the beginning from the end and who will be saved and who won't.
Reincarnation is also the only way to create a fair judgement for all humans. i.e. those who trust Jesus or don't. The Angels fate is and was already sealed before the fall. The fallen angels can not be saved by Jesus and equally the angels who kept there first estate can not fall. This is another aspect of the angelic beings that separate them from being human.
The 7000 year refining process is in 3 stages and it is not till the last stage during the 1000 year Millennia reign will the vast majority of mankind be saved, these will be the 'Great Multitude' who will be in the 2nd Resurrection at the end of the 7000 year process.
Also Christianity is currently the fastest growing and largest religion in the World.
https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/history/judaism.html
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WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
'Our text speaks also of sounding a loud trumpet blast throughout the land on the tenth day of the seventh month. As applied to the last days, this refers to the fanfare which will then be sounded before the Messianic King." (The Last Jubilee)'
Yes Jesus returns on the 120th Jubilee which is the 6000th year of human history, for His 1000 year reign (thus completing the 7000 year prophetic week - A day is as a 1000 years). Jesus returns at the last trump that year on the Day of Atonement - Day 10 Month 7 (Tishri):
Leviticus 25:9
Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land.
The other 49 years the trumpets are blown on the 1st day of month 7 - The Day of Trumpets.
This will be on 19th September 2029...
ttruscott
Well-known member
Why insist on a paradox if our fates are decided by our free will? Does our ignorance of the true nature of a sinner as reprobate or elect force us to reject our fate as self decided by our free will? I don't get it...
I understand what you say but I think it is wrong. I wonder if you even follow the understanding of our pre-existence as being a society of self aware and other aware individuals maturing in all the skills that a pure mentality can attend to, music, logic, math etc. who, when they were ready, heard the gospel for the first time and the claims of YHWH to be our creator GOD.
Please consider:
The holy angel's fate was sealed by their free will refusal to join the Satanic rebellion.
The Satanic angels cannot be saved as their free will sin was the rejection of YHWH's promises of salvation from any and all sin as being the lies of a evil false god which put them beyond both HIS grace and mercy yet within HIS promise to never force upon them a change in their free will decison.
The elect angels who kept their first estate so they cannot fall (implicitly acknowledging their free will) are indeed separate from those elect who rebelled against the call for the judgment of the Satanic who thereby became evil in HIS sight, separate in their holiness while the sinful elect are sown into the world as human.
What you see as a difference in creation is just as possible if not more probable to be a separation between those who chose holiness and those who chose to sin.
I see no injustice with GOD keeping all sinners on earth while HE redeems HIS sinful elect until that is over and the postponement of the judgement also ends (Let them live together till the harvest...the parable of the good seed and the tares, Matt 13) and the judgement day arrives. Nor any injustice in HIS granting us our self chosen fates. Therefore I do not follow that reincarnation is the only way to create a fair judgement for all humans, those who chose to be sinful in HIS sight....I cannot see the logic.
IF our pre-earth existence is real, then it is real within the Christian context and we should not have to venture outside of that context to understand it. Reincarnation is the basic understanding of the pagan nations about our supposed reality as non-sinners under karma, not YHWH...why do we expect our Christian reality to be the same? And if we posit a Christian definition of reincarnation that removes the pagan definitions, how does that improve our understanding of GOD and HIS work with us?
Do you claim that the end result of all life and reincarnation is the salvation of all beings, universal salvation as it were, as do all other believers in reincarnation? If not, of what value is the idea? I teach my version of our pre-conception existence for a number of reasons:
- it solidifies our free will as the cause of all sin, not GOD.
- It solidifies our free will as the cause of our fates, not GOD.
- It does away with the blasphemy that GOD creates evil people, especially HIS Bride, by having them inherit Adam's sin or his sinful nature.
- It logically does away with the blasphemy that GOD created people as evil to end in hell.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Because the free will V's fate argument is resolved if it is all a paradox, where both co-exist; God gets to judge us fairly because those rebelling chose to go to Hell thus He didn't create evil and at the same time God know who is going to Heaven or Hell in advance.
Paradox is the same word in English and Hebrew!
I have been thinking on all this and can see/feel the sense in there being just one type of spiritual entity to start with, on day one in Heaven. It would make sense that they were all angels too. Then some of them rebelled, freely choosing to follow Lucifer. God then gives all the fallen angels a choice in order to redeem themselves and that is the option to become human (by going to Earth) where they will have the opportunity to be righteous and thus save themselves. God also gives the un-fallen angels the same opportunity and the incentive for them (and even the fallen angles) is that if they can successfully redeem themselves they will get to reign over the angels who didn't take up the offer to go to Earth.
Many of angels and fallen angels take up this offer and enter into the test which selects which one of them will go first on day 6. The rest as they say is history. This therefore creates 4 types of being: fallen and un-fallen angels and humans. 4 is the number for Man (not 6 in case you didn't know) and 3 is the number for God 3+4=7 the number for perfection.
What do you think?
Reincarnation is not necessarily pagan as I thought I had shown. It's origins are unclear and can easily have been know to Adam and co? I thought I had already said why reincarnation improves our understanding of God being a loving God who gives us all many chances at redemption.
No, and I'm not the only one who believes reincarnation gives sinners many chances at redemption, however it is not a guarantee of redemption.
It also does away with the fact that God knows everything about our final destinies.
ttruscott
Well-known member
The fact of Satan and his demons being flung to the earth does not seem like a choice to me...and with every human being born as a sinner, why would any holy angel want to become human? And how does the phrase "if they can successfully redeem themselves" rest in the light of such verses as Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God...Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. Etc.
Ummm, confused? I count fallen-1 and un-fallen-2 angels and humans as 3, not 4...but I believe that they are in fact all one, that is, created spirits created in the image of GOD.
Since I believe only those who cannot be saved will not be saved and that some are born condemned already, Jn 3:18 as the people of the evil one, I see no correlation with your thoughts here. I guess we disagree. There is no chance in salvation...you are elect and your life is predestined to culminate as HIS Bride in heaven or you are non-elect, condemned already.
With a predestined end to our lives which we chose by free will, and predetermined lives to fulfill the gift of our redemption, how do we speak of chances? Were not all such 'chances' fulfilled before we set our fates by our free will decisions pre-earth? To my mind, Earth cannot be a place of choice when our wills are subjugated to evil and our salvation is a gift from GOD... Earth is the fulfillment of HIS promise of election in elect sinners to return us to our first free will decison to be in HIS Family and join HIM in the heavenly state from which we fell.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Reincarnation.......trans-forming souls...............
Reincarnation.......trans-forming souls...............
The concept of reincarnation (which is just another type or kind or 'resurrection' of the soul) or some liberal concept of such, was believed by many until the church bolstered down her dogmas into more formal creeds and rigid doctrinal statements on the matter in its later anamethatizing of Origen in the 6th century, since the concept of 'pre-existence' of the soul challenges so much sanitized standard church doctrine, especially the 'atonement' of Christ, having some socio-political implications also to the growing power of the 'church-state' since she would rather weild full temporal power to propitiate souls into heaven who only had one chance on earth, she herself being the only ark of salvation.
I'm philosophically more of the Alexandrian school so the likes of Origen and Celement of Alexandria are in my wheel house, although I'm very eclectic in my approach to religious studies, a theosophist at heart...universally speaking. One of my charter threads here (no longer extant from being so old and purged during one of the last server upgrades) was on 'Reincarnation', and I've contributed to other threads on the subject in the past, exploring the subject more metaphysically/philosophically, comprehensively from every religious tradition's perspective.
In the most liberal sense, it appears logical that souls undergo some kind of 'trans-formation', so the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection', 'rebirth', 're-embodiment', 'trans-migration' and others, are pretty 'cosmetic' apart from formal definitions. What remains as most tenable is that souls continue on in some kind of eternal progression, having 'immortality-potential', this conditioned by various factors such as free will and karma. Thats all that is going on in in the cosmic scheme of things, no matter how you dress the salad
One can see my debate on karma with a traditionalist christian here somewhat related (which is just a splinter of my work along these lines).
As you note on the Essenes (I also had a thread on them, their ancient and modern day movements)...some schools did hold to some form of 'reincarnation'; this carries on from the Jewish belief of 'gilgul' among the kabbalists, so we see that 'reincarnation' is an intergral concept in the scheme of soul-progress and ascension,....it was mainly hushed or suppressed in the exoteric teachings of the formal assemblies or congregrations, but understood and taught among the esoteric schools.
Now granted this was years ago, as I've gone on with other religious studies and interests, but its wonderful to revisit this subject, since as a 'spiritualist' and 'theosophist' at heart, the concept of 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' is kin to the soul's school of learning in its karmic-progression towards perfection, although there are some spiritualist schools that do not hold to reincarnation, or some other peculiar variation of such. On that note, there are some modern versions of 'rebirth' that have their own unique insights and perspectives regarding the 'mechanics' or 'processes' of how the soul 'trans-forms', or is 're-born'. Again,...there is both metaphysics and cosmetics involved in this study. What matters for the soul as far as we know, is known NOW in our moment to moment existence, which puts all speculation of reincarnation and resurrection as periphery items
My last observations and study was to include a reading of a friends book against 'reincarnation' from spirit-messages given thru the medium James E. Padgett in the 20th century, so he makes what he believes to be a sound case against physical re-embodiment, and that persons only physically die once, but continue on in the spirit-worlds, while past life memories are only outside spirits imposing or influencing their thoughts and memories upon those in the flesh. (I've yet to read his book and write a review).
Reincarnation.......trans-forming souls...............
The concept of reincarnation (which is just another type or kind or 'resurrection' of the soul) or some liberal concept of such, was believed by many until the church bolstered down her dogmas into more formal creeds and rigid doctrinal statements on the matter in its later anamethatizing of Origen in the 6th century, since the concept of 'pre-existence' of the soul challenges so much sanitized standard church doctrine, especially the 'atonement' of Christ, having some socio-political implications also to the growing power of the 'church-state' since she would rather weild full temporal power to propitiate souls into heaven who only had one chance on earth, she herself being the only ark of salvation.
I'm philosophically more of the Alexandrian school so the likes of Origen and Celement of Alexandria are in my wheel house, although I'm very eclectic in my approach to religious studies, a theosophist at heart...universally speaking. One of my charter threads here (no longer extant from being so old and purged during one of the last server upgrades) was on 'Reincarnation', and I've contributed to other threads on the subject in the past, exploring the subject more metaphysically/philosophically, comprehensively from every religious tradition's perspective.
In the most liberal sense, it appears logical that souls undergo some kind of 'trans-formation', so the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection', 'rebirth', 're-embodiment', 'trans-migration' and others, are pretty 'cosmetic' apart from formal definitions. What remains as most tenable is that souls continue on in some kind of eternal progression, having 'immortality-potential', this conditioned by various factors such as free will and karma. Thats all that is going on in in the cosmic scheme of things, no matter how you dress the salad
One can see my debate on karma with a traditionalist christian here somewhat related (which is just a splinter of my work along these lines).
As you note on the Essenes (I also had a thread on them, their ancient and modern day movements)...some schools did hold to some form of 'reincarnation'; this carries on from the Jewish belief of 'gilgul' among the kabbalists, so we see that 'reincarnation' is an intergral concept in the scheme of soul-progress and ascension,....it was mainly hushed or suppressed in the exoteric teachings of the formal assemblies or congregrations, but understood and taught among the esoteric schools.
Now granted this was years ago, as I've gone on with other religious studies and interests, but its wonderful to revisit this subject, since as a 'spiritualist' and 'theosophist' at heart, the concept of 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' is kin to the soul's school of learning in its karmic-progression towards perfection, although there are some spiritualist schools that do not hold to reincarnation, or some other peculiar variation of such. On that note, there are some modern versions of 'rebirth' that have their own unique insights and perspectives regarding the 'mechanics' or 'processes' of how the soul 'trans-forms', or is 're-born'. Again,...there is both metaphysics and cosmetics involved in this study. What matters for the soul as far as we know, is known NOW in our moment to moment existence, which puts all speculation of reincarnation and resurrection as periphery items
My last observations and study was to include a reading of a friends book against 'reincarnation' from spirit-messages given thru the medium James E. Padgett in the 20th century, so he makes what he believes to be a sound case against physical re-embodiment, and that persons only physically die once, but continue on in the spirit-worlds, while past life memories are only outside spirits imposing or influencing their thoughts and memories upon those in the flesh. (I've yet to read his book and write a review).
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
As said: 'God also gives the un-fallen angels the same opportunity and the incentive for them (and even the fallen angles) is that if they can successfully redeem themselves they will get to reign over the angels who didn't take up the offer to go to Earth.' This is because in Christ we will rule over the angels.
I agree angels and humans are made in the image of God but I'm pointing out the 4 divisions among us:
1. Christians
2. Angels
3. Fallen angels
4. Non-Christians
This is the order of who will rule over who.
When you put it like this then I guess we do disagree but why do you put fate as being more powerful/important over free will?
When you put it like this however; "With a predestined end to our lives which we chose by free will" - then I am confused as now you're now describing the paradox I believe, or are you?.
oatmeal
Well-known member
The KJV of Ephesians 3:9 states:
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
People like to read into that and say the Jesus Christ created the world.
However, that is not what it says.
Who does it say created?
a. Jesus Christ
b. "God, who created all things"
Who does it say that God created all things by?
It says Jesus Christ, however, and this is very important, the words "by Jesus Christ" do not appear in the texts.
Those words to not appear in the texts. Somehow they did end up in the KJV and some others but not all versions include those words because those versions honestly handled the textual evidence.
For instance:
ASV and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
AMP and to make plain [to everyone] the plan of the mystery [regarding the uniting of believing Jews and Gentiles into one body] which [until now] was kept hidden through the ages in [the mind of] God who created all things.
CSB and to shed light for all about the administration of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things.
CEB God sent me to reveal the secret plan that had been hidden since the beginning of time by God, who created everything.
CJB and of letting everyone see how this secret plan is going to work out. This plan, kept hidden for ages by God, the Creator of everything,
CEV God, who created everything, wanted me to help everyone understand the mysterious plan that had always been hidden in his mind.
DARBY and to enlighten all [with the knowledge of] what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things,
DLNT and enlighten everyone to see what is the stewardship of the mystery having been hidden from the past ages in God, the One having created all things,
DRA And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things:
ERV And God gave me the work of telling all people about the plan for his secret truth. That secret truth has been hidden in him since the beginning of time. He is the one who created everything.
EHV and to enlighten everyone about the administration of this mystery. In past ages this mystery remained hidden in God, who created all things.
ESV and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things,
ESVUK and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,
EXB And God gave me the work of ·telling [making plain; enlightening] all people about the ·plan for [administration of; C the same word translated “work” in v. 2] his ·secret [mystery], which has been hidden ·in [or by] him ·since the beginning of time [L from the ages]. He is the One who created everything.
That is a partial list from Bible Gateway.
Overwhelmingly, the versions do not include those words.
Why not? because they do not belong there because there is no textual evidence for them.
Why would have some included them? Because they read Colossians 1:15-19, especially verses 16-17.
Rather than get into another long discussion about how to rightly divide Colossians, for now I submit that it is sufficient to note that Ephesians 3:9 when correctly stated according to the texts, states that God created, not Jesus Christ.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Sheol (as does hades, the Greek equivalent) means grave or being in the grave, (because of being dead)
Living spirits in the grave?
Really?
ttruscott
Well-known member
You've been duped by the WTS. I prefer the ideas of SHEOL, HADES, PARADISE AND GEHENNA:
This is also written in: Sheol is NOT the grave:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hades.htm
jaybird
New member
The concept of reincarnation (which is just another type or kind or 'resurrection' of the soul) or some liberal concept of such, was believed by many until the church bolstered down her dogmas into more formal creeds and rigid doctrinal statements on the matter in its later anamethatizing of Origen in the 6th century, since the concept of 'pre-existence' of the soul challenges so much sanitized standard church doctrine, especially the 'atonement' of Christ, having some socio-political implications also to the growing power of the 'church-state' since she would rather weild full temporal power to propitiate souls into heaven who only had one chance on earth, she herself being the only ark of salvation.
I'm philosophically more of the Alexandrian school so the likes of Origen and Celement of Alexandria are in my wheel house, although I'm very eclectic in my approach to religious studies, a theosophist at heart...universally speaking. One of my charter threads here (no longer extant from being so old and purged during one of the last server upgrades) was on 'Reincarnation', and I've contributed to other threads on the subject in the past, exploring the subject more metaphysically/philosophically, comprehensively from every religious tradition's perspective.
In the most liberal sense, it appears logical that souls undergo some kind of 'trans-formation', so the terms 'reincarnation', 'resurrection', 'rebirth', 're-embodiment', 'trans-migration' and others, are pretty 'cosmetic' apart from formal definitions. What remains as most tenable is that souls continue on in some kind of eternal progression, having 'immortality-potential', this conditioned by various factors such as free will and karma. Thats all that is going on in in the cosmic scheme of things, no matter how you dress the salad
One can see my debate on karma with a traditionalist christian here somewhat related (which is just a splinter of my work along these lines).
As you note on the Essenes (I also had a thread on them, their ancient and modern day movements)...some schools did hold to some form of 'reincarnation'; this carries on from the Jewish belief of 'gilgul' among the kabbalists, so we see that 'reincarnation' is an intergral concept in the scheme of soul-progress and ascension,....it was mainly hushed or suppressed in the exoteric teachings of the formal assemblies or congregrations, but understood and taught among the esoteric schools.
Now granted this was years ago, as I've gone on with other religious studies and interests, but its wonderful to revisit this subject, since as a 'spiritualist' and 'theosophist' at heart, the concept of 'reincarnation' or 'rebirth' is kin to the soul's school of learning in its karmic-progression towards perfection, although there are some spiritualist schools that do not hold to reincarnation, or some other peculiar variation of such. On that note, there are some modern versions of 'rebirth' that have their own unique insights and perspectives regarding the 'mechanics' or 'processes' of how the soul 'trans-forms', or is 're-born'. Again,...there is both metaphysics and cosmetics involved in this study. What matters for the soul as far as we know, is known NOW in our moment to moment existence, which puts all speculation of reincarnation and resurrection as periphery items
My last observations and study was to include a reading of a friends book against 'reincarnation' from spirit-messages given thru the medium James E. Padgett in the 20th century, so he makes what he believes to be a sound case against physical re-embodiment, and that persons only physically die once, but continue on in the spirit-worlds, while past life memories are only outside spirits imposing or influencing their thoughts and memories upon those in the flesh. (I've yet to read his book and write a review).
im not familiar with the modern Essene movement other than gregg braden and what he teaches seems a bit different than what i have read in my own DSS studies. not that he is a bad teacher. i always wondered where they got their Essene info from being as that movement started before the Qumran find.
i like what Origen teaches on rebirth and IMO it syncs with what i have read in the DSS, gospel of Thomas and the parable teachings of Yashua.