ECT Our triune God

[Lon]

That was Jesus speaking in the Old Testament. God the Father came in the New Testament time in the flesh as the Son.

I have a bit more patience for Modalism, specifically because you believe Jesus is God, and that there is only one, but this is a triune thread. Please try to remember there are about 200 threads on TOL where you can argue about the nature and character of God, aside from this one. This one is specifically for Triune believers to discuss with one another rather than be side-tracked. I made this thread specifically to stay on topic. Thanks

 

[God's Truth]

I have a bit more patience for Modalism, but this is a triune thread. Please try to remember there are about 200 threads on TOL where you can argue about the nature and character of God, aside from this one. This one is specifically for Triune believers to discuss with one another rather than be side-tracked. I made this thread specifically to stay on topic. Thanks

I am not a modalitst. I have told you that before. You want to sound so knowledgeable about this, but you do not even grasp the difference between what I believe and modalism

I was giving you and any trinitarian a chance to try to show me how I am wrong about what I believe.

What better place to have a triniatarian show me where I am wrong?

None of you experts in the trinity doctrine explained anything.

Thank you for nothing. I will post somewhere else.

 

[Lon]

I am not a modalitst. I have told you that before. You want to sound so knowledgeable about this, but you do not even grasp the difference between what I believe and modalism

I was giving you and any trinitarian a chance to try to show me how I am wrong about what I believe.

What better place to have a triniatarian show me where I am wrong?

None of you experts in the trinity doctrine explained anything.

Thank you for nothing. I will post somewhere else.

Sorry. I have you on ignore. I'll take you off for a season. If you are a Trinitarian, welcome, but I'm seeing a lot of modal language from you. Is it one-ness Pentecostal? Any self-descriptor would help. From Raven's redress, you 'seem' to have a few modal ideas.

Thanks.

 

[God's Truth]

Sorry. I have you on ignore. I'll take you off for a season. If you are a Trinitarian, welcome, but I'm seeing a lot of modal language from you. Is it one-ness Pentecostal? Any self-descriptor would help. From Raven's redress, you 'seem' to have a few modal ideas.

Thanks.

Oneness Pentecostals are modalists, aren't they?

I am Christian who believes the scriptures.

As I said before, I was posting because I thought there was some of the best experts on the trinitarian doctrine in this thread that could try to show me where and why they thought I was wrong, and possibly answer some questions. I did not get that.

As I said before, I will post elsewhere.

 

[Arsenios]

That was Jesus speaking in the Old Testament. God the Father came in the New Testament time in the flesh as the Son.

There is only One God and He is the Father.

Jesus Christ is the Father of the New Human race of the Age to Come,
Who Himself is begotten of His Own Father before all Ages:

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called
Wonderful,
Counsellor,
The Mighty God,
The Everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace.

So that the BEGOTTEN Son
Is NOT the BEGETTING Father,
yet BOTH are God...

This knot does not unravel...
They are NOT the SAME...
NOR are they DIFFERENT...
BOTH are GOD...

So the question is, HOW can this be expressed...

The simple way of the Church Fathers is:
Three Hypostases comprise one Essence...
Three Persons, One God...
All Three are God...
And Each Severally...

Because the Father is Unbegotten AND Un-Prodeeded...
And the Father Begot the Son and Proceeded the Holy Spirit...
The Son IS Begotten of, not Proceeded from the Father...
And the Holy Spirit is Prodeeded from the Father and not Begotten...

These are Their REVEALED differences...

And the Begotten Son is OUR Everlasting Father
in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth right now in an earnest,
and as well in the Age to Come...

It is because we are baptized INTO Christ...
That Christ thereby becomes our Everlasting Father...
Because we are BORN from Him in the Waters of Regeneration...
And in THIS life, we live PUTTING ON Christ in repentance from self...

Arsenios

 

[God's Truth]

Lon,
My beliefs have been the same for a long time now, and no trinitarian doctrine is rubbing off on me, as you said.

 

[Arsenios]

None of you experts in the trinity doctrine explained anything.

Thank you for nothing.

I will post somewhere else.

Sounds pretty bitter to me, GT...

How do you read Psalm 82:6 ?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Lon,
My beliefs have been the same for a long time now, and
No trinitarian doctrine is rubbing off on me,
as you said.

Which Church do you normally like to attend?

It sounds like you are non-Trinitarian, yes?

Which Church teaches your doctrines?

Arsenios

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus Christ is the Father of the New Human race of the Age to Come,
Who Himself is begotten of His Own Father before all Ages:

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called
Wonderful,
Counsellor,
The Mighty God,
The Everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace.

So that the BEGOTTEN Son
Is NOT the BEGETTING Father,
yet BOTH are God...

This knot does not unravel...
They are NOT the SAME...
NOR are they DIFFERENT...
BOTH are GOD...

So the question is, HOW can this be expressed...

The simple way of the Church Fathers is:
Three Hypostases comprise one Essence...
Three Persons, One God...
All Three are God...
And Each Severally...

Because the Father is Unbegotten AND Un-Prodeeded...
And the Father Begot the Son and Proceeded the Holy Spirit...
The Son IS Begotten of, not Proceeded from the Father...
And the Holy Spirit is Prodeeded from the Father and not Begotten...

These are Their REVEALED differences...

And the Begotten Son is OUR Everlasting Father
in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth right now in an earnest,
and as well in the Age to Come...

It is because we are baptized INTO Christ...
That Christ thereby becomes our Everlasting Father...
Because we are BORN from Him in the Waters of Regeneration...
And in THIS life, we live PUTTING ON Christ in repentance from self...

Arsenios

It means a lot that you took the time to write out a reply to me. Lon would like me to stop posting in this thread about the triune God, even though my beliefs are about there being three. Nevertheless, this is my last post in this thread, just wanted to let you know. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, and doubt that anyone can refute the scriptures I gave.

 

[Arsenios]

It means a lot that you took the time to write out a reply to me. Lon would like me to stop posting in this thread about the triune God, even though my beliefs are about there being three. Nevertheless, this is my last post in this thread, just wanted to let you know. I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, and doubt that anyone can refute the scriptures I gave.

God bless you, GT...

Lon is looking for discussion on Trinitarian theology from competing Trinitarian understandings... He started the thread for that purpose... He did not start it to defend Trinitarianism per se, but to explore how differing understandings work for and against each other... And if they can resolve and coalesce, or just have to separate and, as post moderns like to say, "celebrate their differences!"...

Thank-you for your prayers...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I have a bit more patience for Modalism, specifically because you believe Jesus is God, and that there is only one, but this is a triune thread.

The issues seem to entail conflation...

Modalism conflates Physis with Hypostasis...

Physis conflates (often) Ousia with Hypostasis...

Hypostasis can conflate Ousia with Physis...

So that just using three terms, which we translate as Nature, Essence and Person, the field can quickly turn into a programming [so to speak] nightmare...

For myself, and this is absolutely primary for me, the understanding that God is Person is bedrock. THAT, you see, is HOW I encountered Him in Spirit... The first and primary feature of that encounter is that one is having an encounter with a Person...

For instance - Back when I denied the existence of God, and could prove that He did not exist, and could not exist, I has my first encounter with Him... I was walking into my living room with some fresh coffee heading for the sofa and absolutely crushed my little left toe into a heavy table leg and barely made it to the sofa to set the coffee without spilling it on the coffee table, in great pain of the toe... And as I squeezed the to waiting for the pain to subside, a small voice came into my mind that said: "It was because you were having a rotten thought, you know..."

Now I did NOT know where that thought came from, and in my pain I yelled back at it: "That is the most crazy psycho-thought ever! You don't stub your toe because you have a rotten thought, and besides, I don't even remember thinking anything at all except how good the coffee will be and the crossword... What a stupid idea! Where did THAT come from?"

And it was true, I had to admit, that I was prone to stubbing my toes on hard objects fairly regularly, so I said to myself, "maybe next time, I will remember what I was thinking about just as I stub it again... But that idea is just plain nuts..."

Didn't wait long - Next morning, as a matter of fact, carefully navigating with my coffee around the heavy legged table, I smashed that same little toe into the coffee table, dropped the cup quickly onto the table and cried out in agony onto the sofa holding my foot, but I remembered to ask: "What was I just thinking?" And Lo and Behold! I had been thinking about a person who had treated someone I cared about pretty badly, and I had been thinking, just as that poor already bruised and inflamed toe smashed itself into the coffee table... "I wonder how HE would like it IF..." SMASH-TOE=PAIN... And I held my poor toe and said to myself: "OK - THAT was just a coincidence, OK? I mean, maybe it might be true on occassion or so, but rotten thoughts do NOT cause toes to get stubbed - That is a crackers notion if I ever had one..."

So the next day, I slept in a little, and some friends came by, and I fixed them some coffee, and brought it out to serve them in the living room on the coffee table, and smithereened that same bruised little toe into a bleeding ball of excruciating agony as I set the coffee down, and I rolled onto the couch clutching that pain with tears running down my face, and my friends looked at me in horror and asked:

"WHY are you LAUGHING???"

And I said:

"BECAUSE... I had a ROTTEN THOUGHT!"

So now everyone knows what I am REALLY like...

I did not know it was God, but I knew it was NOT me... And it WAS a person, speaking from within me... So I put it on a back burner... When years later I met God AS God, I was meeting Him in Person having Power...

To this day I do not know if it was God speaking... I suspect it was probably some Saint somewhere in some cell or cave, moving in the Spirit with God moving him, who decided the atheist needed some greening... Who knows?

To finish the story, I said to myself, "OK - NO MORE rotten thoughts! And I stopped permitting them to myself. Period.

I have not stubbed my toe again in 50 years or so now...

So maybe we can start with Person, the Person of God, because this is ultimate condescension, to meet Him Who is the Author of all... Without all His OUSIA/POWER sizzling one like burnt steak in the encounter... We ALL know what Person means... We have to be taught its hypostatic Mystery...

PPS - How are your toes these days?

1n1, Ya change y'er bloody socks yet?

I love you guys!

Arsenios

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The issues seem to entail conflation...

Modalism conflates Physis with Hypostasis...

Physis conflates (often) Ousia with Hypostasis...

Hypostasis can conflate Ousia with Physis...

So that just using three terms, which we translate as Nature, Essence and Person, the field can quickly turn into a programming [so to speak] nightmare...

For myself, and this is absolutely primary for me, the understanding that God is Person is bedrock. THAT, you see, is HOW I encountered Him in Spirit... The first and primary feature of that encounter is that one is having an encounter with a Person...

For instance - Back when I denied the existence of God, and could prove that He did not exist, and could not exist, I has my first encounter with Him... I was walking into my living room with some fresh coffee heading for the sofa and absolutely crushed my little left toe into a heavy table leg and barely made it to the sofa to set the coffee without spilling it on the coffee table, in great pain of the toe... And as I squeezed the to waiting for the pain to subside, a small voice came into my mind that said: "It was because you were having a rotten thought, you know..."

Now I did NOT know where that thought came from, and in my pain I yelled back at it: "That is the most crazy psycho-thought ever! You don't stub your toe because you have a rotten thought, and besides, I don't even remember thinking anything at all except how good the coffee will be and the crossword... What a stupid idea! Where did THAT come from?"

And it was true, I had to admit, that I was prone to stubbing my toes on hard objects fairly regularly, so I said to myself, "maybe next time, I will remember what I was thinking about just as I stub it again... But that idea is just plain nuts..."

Didn't wait long - Next morning, as a matter of fact, carefully navigating with my coffee around the heavy legged table, I smashed that same little toe into the coffee table, dropped the cup quickly onto the table and cried out in agony onto the sofa holding my foot, but I remembered to ask: "What was I just thinking?" And Lo and Behold! I had been thinking about a person who had treated someone I cared about pretty badly, and I had been thinking, just as that poor already bruised and inflamed toe smashed itself into the coffee table... "I wonder how HE would like it IF..." SMASH-TOE=PAIN... And I held my poor toe and said to myself: "OK - THAT was just a coincidence, OK? I mean, maybe it might be true on occassion or so, but rotten thoughts do NOT cause toes to get stubbed - That is a crackers notion if I ever had one..."

So the next day, I slept in a little, and some friends came by, and I fixed them some coffee, and brought it out to serve them in the living room on the coffee table, and smithereened that same bruised little toe into a bleeding ball of excruciating agony as I set the coffee down, and I rolled onto the couch clutching that pain with tears running down my face, and my friends looked at me in horror and asked:

"WHY are you LAUGHING???"

And I said:

"BECAUSE... I had a ROTTEN THOUGHT!"

So now everyone knows what I am REALLY like...

I did not know it was God, but I knew it was NOT me... And it WAS a person, speaking from within me... So I put it on a back burner... When years later I met God AS God, I was meeting Him in Person having Power...

To this day I do not know if it was God speaking... I suspect it was probably some Saint somewhere in some cell or cave, moving in the Spirit with God moving him, who decided the atheist needed some greening... Who knows?

To finish the story, I said to myself, "OK - NO MORE rotten thoughts! And I stopped permitting them to myself. Period.

I have not stubbed my toe again in 50 years or so now...

So maybe we can start with Person, the Person of God, because this is ultimate condescension, to meet Him Who is the Author of all... Without all His OUSIA/POWER sizzling one like burnt steak in the encounter... We ALL know what Person means... We have to be taught its hypostatic Mystery...

PPS - How are your toes these days?

1n1, Ya change y'er bloody socks yet?

I love you guys!

Arsenios

My toes have been resiliently unstubbed for many years since I vacated the fallacy of God being 3 hypostases; which, if comprising multiple minds and wills, is three ousios as multiple sentient volitional beings.

God is a Self-phenomenal Self-noumenal uncreated transcendent hypostasis AS Spirit. His literal Logos is, of course, the same.

When He spoke (and breathed) forth to create ALL, His phenomenal/noumenal Logos proceeded forth (exerchomai - John 8:42) and the noumenon of His phenomenal/noumenal Pneuma was pierced and partitioned for distribution (merismos - NOT divided; distributed) from His inherent Self-phenomenon AS Spirit and prodeedeth (ekporeuomai - John 15:26) when/as creation was instantiated (Ex Nihilo) into phenomenal existence from noumena in God's eternal immutable nous.

Instantiation as inception for creation. Procession is not emanation, exudation, etc.; nor is it instantiation and inception as creation. The qualitative two-fold procession of God's phenomenal/noumenal Logos and the nounenal as His set-apart (hagios - holy) Spirit from Himself AS phenomenal Spirit are the Son and Holy Spirit. Co-inherent qualitative distinctions expressed/exhaled into created heaven and the cosmos as all creation is given phenomenality of actuality of existence for its potentiality of existence as nounena in God's mind.

The eternal Logos proceeded forth as the eternal Son. They're coterminous. The Holy Spirit is the perichoretic for the Father and the Son. The inherent transcendent phenomenal hypostasis is the Father. The processed phenomenal/noumenal Logos is that hypostasis as the Son. The Father is not the Son, for God is the Father and His Logos is the Son. The Holy Spirit is the perichoretic as God's breathed noumenal Spirit interpenetrating the phenomenal and noumenal Logos/Son and the Father as phenomenal Spirit.

The singular hypostasis is the transcendent uncreated "Person" of the Father while concurrently being the processed uncreated "Person" of the Son in immanence. The express image of God's hypostasis, and with a distinct immanent prosopon from the Father's inherent transcendent prosopon, the latter in-shining into creation.

Multi-phenomenal and Uni-hypostatic as the Triune God.

God cannot be quantified in ANY manner, and cannot be three hypostases; and MUST be multi-phenomenal, thus avoiding Semi-Pantheism, etc.

To infer Father and Son as distinct quanitified hypostases is to anthropomorphize God into man's image and deny He is Self-existent and Self-conscious. And for the Son to be a distinct hypostasis from the Father, it would have to mean the Son is created.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Jesus Christ is the Father of the New Human race of the Age to Come,
Who Himself is begotten of His Own Father before all Ages:

Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called
Wonderful,
Counsellor,
The Mighty God,
The Everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace.

So that the BEGOTTEN Son
Is NOT the BEGETTING Father,
yet BOTH are God...

This knot does not unravel...
They are NOT the SAME...
NOR are they DIFFERENT...
BOTH are GOD...

So the question is, HOW can this be expressed...

The simple way of the Church Fathers is:
Three Hypostases comprise one Essence...
Three Persons, One God...
All Three are God...
And Each Severally...

Because the Father is Unbegotten AND Un-Prodeeded...
And the Father Begot the Son and Proceeded the Holy Spirit...
The Son IS Begotten of, not Proceeded from the Father...
And the Holy Spirit is Prodeeded from the Father and not Begotten...

These are Their REVEALED differences...

And the Begotten Son is OUR Everlasting Father
in the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth right now in an earnest,
and as well in the Age to Come...

It is because we are baptized INTO Christ...
That Christ thereby becomes our Everlasting Father...
Because we are BORN from Him in the Waters of Regeneration...
And in THIS life, we live PUTTING ON Christ in repentance from self...

Arsenios

For the bolded and underlined...

Please see John 8:42, "...I proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came from God...".

The Son indeed proceeded forth from God.

 

[Arsenios]

For the bolded and underlined...

Please see John 8:42, "...I proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came from God...".

The Son indeed proceeded forth from God.

8:42 is ekonomic, εξηλθον and is not the word used in the Creed...

That word is: εκπορευεται which is understood ontologically, not ekonomically...
It is taken from John 15:26 ...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I vacated the fallacy of God being 3 hypostases;
which, if comprising multiple minds and wills,
is three ousios as multiple sentient volitional beings.

The Hypostases are of One Mind and One Will...

God is a Self-phenomenal Self-noumenal uncreated transcendent hypostasis AS Spirit. His literal Logos is, of course, the same.

We had this discussion... Phenomena are all created... You have yet to demonstrate the Self-phenomenal God as Spirit... Neither from Scripture nor from experience...

When He spoke (and breathed) forth to create ALL, His phenomenal/noumenal Logos proceeded forth (exerchomai - John 8:42) and the noumenon of His phenomenal/noumenal Pneuma was pierced and partitioned for distribution (merismos - NOT divided; distributed) from His inherent Self-phenomenon AS Spirit and prodeedeth (ekporeuomai - John 15:26) when/as creation was instantiated (Ex Nihilo) into phenomenal existence from noumena in God's eternal immutable nous.

Ekporisis is not here understood ekonomically by the Church Fathers, but ontologically, so that your saying that He prodeeded as Creation was created, means to us that He was created at that time... So perhaps terminology is getting in the way?

I

nstantiation as inception for creation.

Got that...

Procession is not emanation, exudation, etc.;

Why not?

nor is it (procession) instantiation and inception as creation.

Again, why not?

This style of argument, defining away from concepts as if by fiat, causes my eyes to glaze over... I really don't care if you say it or don't say it, because it is asserted without a basis for understanding it to be true or false...

The qualitative two-fold procession of God's phenomenal/noumenal Logos and the nounenal as His set-apart (hagios - holy) Spirit from Himself AS phenomenal Spirit are the Son and Holy Spirit. Co-inherent qualitative distinctions expressed/exhaled into created heaven and the cosmos as all creation is given phenomenality of actuality of existence for its potentiality of existence as nounena in God's mind.

Same reply here... This is gobble-dee-gookification... Perhaps others can "see" your line... I cannot, and tire of even making an effort...

Enuf...

A.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

So maybe we can start with Person, the Person of God, because this is ultimate condescension, to meet Him Who is the Author of all... Without all His OUSIA/POWER sizzling one like burnt steak in the encounter... We ALL know what Person means... We have to be taught its hypostatic Mystery...

Arsenios

Sizzle one?

I trow not.

It's like an overdose of love friend that kills a man.

PPS - How are your toes these days?

1n1, Ya change y'er bloody socks yet?

I love you guys!

Barked my shins a few times in this process.


II PETER

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And * beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound , they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh * these things is blind, and cannot see afar off , and hath forgotten * that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall * never fall * :

11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

 

[Arsenios]

Sizzle one?

I trow not.

It's like an overdose of love friend that kills a man.

Straight from the old KJV!

He only gives us what we can take...

But we cannot look upon the Face of God and live, yes?

And she had the uncontainable God in His entirety within her womb...

And she was not fried, or overdosed, as your word-craft makes well...

II PETER

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And * beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound , they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh * these things is blind, and cannot see afar off , and hath forgotten * that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall * never fall * :

11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

The Faith is given, and we ADD virtue by diligence, then knowledge is added TO the virtue...

The unavoidable conclusion is that without virtue, there IS NO KNOWLEDGE...

Arsenios

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Straight from the old KJV!

He only gives us what we can take...

But we cannot look upon the Face of God and life, yes?

And she had the uncontainable God in His entirety within her womb...

And she was not fried, or overdosed, as your word-craft makes well...



The Faith is given, and we ADD virtue by diligence, then knowledge is added TO the virtue...

The unavoidable conclusion is that without virtue, there IS NO KNOWLEDGE...

Arsenios

Agreed that faith is given.

I'm thinkin' yer jumpin' the gun.

Without Faith there is nothing.

Virtue is courage and strength.

Mark 5:30 KJV

30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue (strength) had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said , Who touched my clothes?



What I found was that when I stepped out with courage, Satan attacked and showed me I lacked knowledge.

I knew then and it hasn't changed, that Jesus' words were knowledge.

You know?

Ask and you shall receive?

Knock and it shall be opened to you?

Luke 12:25 KJV

25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

And she had the uncontainable God in His entirety within her womb...


Arsenios

Nope.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The Hypostases are of One Mind and One Will...

This is what I've contended is the Orthodox position, but you've previously corrected and insisted each hypostasis has a mind and will. Then you said we can't know.

We had this discussion...

Right. And you made this same erroneous bare assertion. And I posted lexicography instead of presumption and opinion.

Phenomena are all created...

Phenomena, by very etymology and definition, are that which can be observed and have an underlying objective reality; and with no presumption or necessity for a beholder. God has a face (prosopon), and is a hypostasis (that which underlies reality for substantial objective existence.

He's observable, even if no man can look upon Him and live. He shines. He appears. God doesn't need creation to observe His prosopon for Him to exist. So He is UNcreated Phenomenon, and we most certainly know He's UNcreated Noumenon because of John 1:1 and pros in the accusative. The Logos was with (pros) God. God's own Logos was intently and exhaustively focused toward the unabridged entirety of Rhema as the thing thought and spoken about. There was no thing (nothing) else but God, so the focus of God's Logos was toward His hypostasis in total Self-conscious Self-awareness of Self-Existence. God's Rhema IS His hypostasis. There was no thing else to think or speak about. Only Him. His hypostasis and all it underlies.

If someone doesn't "know" God is Self-conscious and Self-existent, then there is much intuition of the nous unemployed. That's exactly why this can't be an intellectual pursuit of reasoning by declaring that phenomena must be created. The only phenomenon that is UNcreated is God, and without His hypostasis underlying all created hypostases, none could exist and shine or appear as phenomena.

You have demonstrated a non-existent God, and a phenomenal creation that has properties of existence greater than its Creator. And to insist all phenomena is created requires absolute and concrete cataphaticism. The best you could say is that we cannot know whether or not there is UNcreated phenomena; not to mention that phenomena is knowledge via the physical senses. Wrong tree. To eliminate UNcreated phenomena is Empiricism. Sahkal. The pride of life.

You have yet to demonstrate the Self-phenomenal God as Spirit...

To refuse to recognize the above is to relegate God as subordinate and inferior to His creation. It would mean He has no prosopon and doesn't shine, and cannot appear. It eliminates even the possibility of Him manifesting Himself in or toward His creation. It makes Him non-existent and creating existence, with no prosopon for His hypostasis.

THAT's an impersonal God right there. One who has no underlying reality presented by a face in appearance. No mask means no "person", and makes God not be a hypostasis because He doesn't inherently appear or shine with/as a prosopon.

God is UNcreated phenomenological and noumenological existence. THIS is part of what the Patristics missed while squabbling over Arianism, Sabellianism, and other formulaics equalling rooted in the same naive shallow error.

Neither from Scripture nor from experience...

Nonsense. The bare lexicography is what I've presented. And I've most definitely experienced it. The perichoresis of those I disciple is further confirmation.

You unwittingly represent a non-existent God who doesn't and can't shine or appear, and requires creation's shining and appearance for any manifestation. This is worse than Modalism, and is eerily adjacent to Platonic silliness.

If there were "never" a creation, the Creator shines and appears as a prosopon representing His underlying hypostasis for His ousia and its physis. No beholder is necessary. No beholding is required. He is the I AM, not the I AM NOT. He exists, and He shines.

He is UNcreated phenomenon and is the objective reality that gives all created phenomena its foundation to have existence and appear as subjective reality. The UNcreated objective reality underlies and is superordinate to the created subjective reality. UNcreated phenomenal existence is the very underlying foundation FOR created phenomenal existence. Without the former, there wouldn't be the latter.

Creation shines as phenomena BECAUSE God is UNcreated phenomenon. Self-Phenomenon and Self-Noumenon. Man is merely self-noumenal of his created phenomenal existence.

Ekporisis is not here understood ekonomically by the Church Fathers, but ontologically,

Ek- is motion out of/from. It's economy. Movement. Action. Not creative, but eternally proceeding. Ek- is not ontological, it's the economy relative to energies of inherently ontological essence. Economy FROM ontology.

so that your saying that He prodeeded as Creation was created, means to us that He was created at that time... So perhaps terminology is getting in the way?

It is, and preconceived concepts. Ontology takes action via energies for that economy. If God's Logos is inherently and ontologically divine, then when He speaks it forth it is not created. It is creatING and processing into that creation as the Son.

Got that...

Why not?

Again, why not?

An argument could be made that procession is emanation. My comments were to avoid emanation AT the procession for creation. No Pantheism.

This style of argument, defining away from concepts as if by fiat, causes my eyes to glaze over... I really don't care if you say it or don't say it, because it is asserted without a basis for understanding it to be true or false...

Same reply here... This is gobble-dee-gookification... Perhaps others can "see" your line... I cannot, and tire of even making an effort...

Enuf...

A.

If you could ever debrief from dogma, it's readily apparent. The excessive words are because you're on lock-down and can't access anything beyond a 2D God that Orthodoxy has defined cataphatically in too small of terms while insisting they have not.