ECT Our triune God

[Arsenios]

Case Closed. Debating This, Proves One Has Not Had An "Encounter" With God The Person. Furthermore, Paying Attention At My Orthodox Church Service, While A Particular Song Is Being Sung, (Which Would Require Scanning The Assembly) I Can Know Who is Lying And Who is "Lit Up." I Agree Somewhat, I Submit That Behavior Outside Of Services Shows More; Everyday Interactions In "Real Life". I Also Think People That "Know" A Song and "Service", Knowing The Words And Having Sang the Songs Hundreds Or Thousands Of Times, Will "Behave" Differently Than People That Have Not. Arsenios, Are You A Priest Or Active In Ministry ?


View attachment 19584

The sentence sung in Services is this:

"And IN Thy Light shall we SEE Light..."

The implication is clear:

"Outside that Light, one cannot see the Light..."

Behavior in Church Services indicates little, unless one knows what one is seeing... This is why PPS's criticism - eg "They are not theological enough for me..." - falls on deaf ears... For the reason that God is not encountered in DOCTRINES, but IS encountered in PERSON... Brainiacs, in the Orthodox Church, as a general rule, make lousy so-called theologians... The true theologians in this Faith of Christ do NOT normally speak or write of it... They simply LIVE their lives in this world, and when a brainiac blusters in with a Santa Clause Bag of 5-10 syllable words that nobody has ever heard of and wants to string them together in ways nobody understands, they normally just smile, shuffle off, and discuss the Yankees with their brother-in-law sleeping on their couch...

Jes' sayin'!!

I know a lot of non-Orthodox folks who have had encounters with God in Person - They are spiritual anchors in their Protestant worship communities... They anchor the tents of the Churches in my town where I live... They are all friends of mine... We know each other... We knew each other on sight...

And there are others whom I do NOT yet know...

I serve as a Reader in my little Church here, have not been ordained, and function as best I can... We are just now, tonight, with the Sunday night service, which is actually, after sunset, the Monday Service, entering Holy Week, one week after the western calendar... Pascha for us is next Sunday - The Saturday midnight Service... And we will then break the Fast of Lent and its two weeks of fasting surrounding it... eg the 54 day Great Fast... Light vegan diet of two small meals per day...

All I do is pray for people, and help out where I can, and work at my job - I am a self-employed person... I am not a priest - Serving at the Holy Altar is not my calling... I work with souls when I work at all... So far at least...

You are right that when a person uses an adjectival term for God rather than the term Person, one confesses that he or she has not met God in Person... Because THAT is the take-away from every Personal encounter with Him... God is not a sub-standing, but is the Substanding Person Who is One of the Holy Trinity... And the Trinity is One... And it doesn't explain away... Were it to do so, God would not be apprehended by Faith, but instead by INFERENCE...

Trinitarian Theology is empirical... It is not a logically consistent construct of unfamiliar words having peculiar definitions...

'Nuff!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

In other words, I lead you into Roman Catholic theology.

There ARE no other words...
These are the ONLY words...
There will NEVER be ANY other words...
Nor have there EVER been other words...
THESE words are the ONLY words...
Now and ever...
And unto the ages of the ages...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, Are You A Priest Or Active In Ministry ?

I am very active in my small [75 souls, half of them children] Orthodox mission parish, doing two services daily, morning and evening, plus working full time... We only do one Service Mondays, at 3 AM... We then have the rest of the day off till Tue at 7 AM... In addition, we pray a regimen of morning and evening prayers, plus a personal prayer rule worked out under the supervision and obedience to a Spiritual Father... Plus prayer throughout the day...

This is simply a normal Christian way of life, centered around the Liturgical Calendar of the Church in daily worship, prayer, fasting and services and the giving of alms... When I visit monasteries, I get to participate even more fully in the Life of the Household of our Lord...

And in this is an active ministry, for we minister to God... I was speaking Friday to an Episcopalian woman priest, who remarked that our congregation is pretty good sized for this town, and she wanted to know how we attracted people to join with us... I told her that we had started with 17 some 8 years ago, and have slowly and steadily grown, and how people come and see and remain, being led to us on their own in many ways, and thereby called of the Holy Spirit, and not by our invitation via various programs... By the time a seeker arrives at an Orthodox Church, they normally are about ready to give up, and are experienced in what is wrong with western Christianity... And what they find is what they have been seeking... And they no longer need to keep looking... It is all right here...

And yes, there are crappy Orthodox Churches with terrible pastors and all manner of wrongs... But the Truth can be found here, even in the face of such troubles... The Russian Church is an example of a Church that was decimated and infiltrated by the Atheists under Communism for 80 years, and is stronger now than ever... We are martyric, and that is our witness... We live the Cross... And in this find refuge from worldly afflictions... Because we embrace them... And find therein Christ's Peace which is not of this fallen world...

My Episcopalian friend was disappointed in my answer... She was, I think, hoping to find out what we had DONE to grow as we have done... When the answer is the calling of the Holy Spirit, it is not all that useful in a worldly way...

The ministry we engage is simply living lives dedicated to the Faith which Christ gave to His Apostles which we practice inasmuch as we are able to do in our lives in the world... Those who have left the world pray for us, both in monasteries and in heaven...

Arsenios

 

[Lon]

Nang's report

Nang's report

The Mod does not understand the spiritual argument pps was attempting to make, and neither did Lon who originally reported.

Both of you are in error to criticize or punish what you are not comprehending.

Inquiry first, would be more righteous, than ignorant and uncalled for infractions, imposed . . . just because you can . . .

Was there confusion? I feel, though PPS certainly could have been exceedingly gracious, he was not. He didn't bother to PM me, or anything of the sort. He said to go ahead and report it.
Here is where it started:

How do this coincide with 2Corinthians 2:10 where Paul forgave sins?

(In the prosopon of Christ is the key.)

Same for us in accordance with John 20:23.

This is an odd question for one who understands Christ as God. I was questioned first on it by a 1Mind, who is a Unitarian so it was an odd thing to be questioned by a person who claims to be triune. PPS's next comment supported a Unitarian, against a triune doctrine.

The Eastern Orthodox do confuse the Spirit as only proceeding from the Father, but it is not 'sexual' in error. That is a gross overstatement. Do they essentially disagree with the Triune position? No. They may misunderstand it, but embrace God as One with three distinctions. PPS is less gracious to erring Trinitarians than I or others. There is a precedence for calling those who have an appearance of godliness yet denying the power thereof, but it must be done accurately. Sexuality has no place in a triune discussion about our God.

This thread isn't for that purpose. Furthermore, when corrected on this, his understanding of 'simplicity' and the nature of the physical universe as coming from God who is Spirit, he showed himself to be arrogant, not beneath sophomoric ridicule, nor above exacerbating that ridicule by 'reporting' his indiscretion in order to malign and marginalize, he showed himself to be a candidate for infraction, even gaining maliciousness against challenge. I simply reported his gross indiscretion for calling a fellow Trinitarian, however heterodox, a homosexual, wrong and inappropriate for TOL. It doesn't belong in this thread. I said nothing of these indiscretions, harmful words, or self-elevating other-effacing expressions.

His infraction was 'not' for a spiritual argument, but an incorrect crude comment about another's theology that had nothing to do with sexuality, nor especially perverted sexuality with the living God.

 

[Arsenios]

Was there confusion? I feel, though PPS certainly could have been exceedingly gracious, he was not. He didn't bother to PM me, or anything of the sort. He said to go ahead and report it.
Here is where it started:


This is an odd question for one who understands Christ as God. I was questioned first on it by a 1Mind, who is a Unitarian so it was an odd thing to be questioned by a person who claims to be triune. PPS's next comment supported a Unitarian, against a triune doctrine.

The Eastern Orthodox do confuse the Spirit as only proceeding from the Father, but it is not 'sexual' in error. That is a gross overstatement. Do they essentially disagree with the Triune position? No. They may misunderstand it, but embrace God as One with three distinctions. PPS is less gracious to erring Trinitarians than I or others. There is a precedence for calling those who have an appearance of godliness yet denying the power thereof, but it must be done accurately. Sexuality has no place in a triune discussion about our God.

This thread isn't for that purpose. Furthermore, when corrected on this, his understanding of 'simplicity' and the nature of the physical universe as coming from God who is Spirit, he showed himself to be arrogant, not beneath sophomoric ridicule, nor above exacerbating that ridicule by 'reporting' his indiscretion in order to malign and marginalize, he showed himself to be a candidate for infraction, even gaining maliciousness against challenge. I simply reported his gross indiscretion for calling a fellow Trinitarian, however heterodox, a homosexual, wrong and inappropriate for TOL. It doesn't belong in this thread. I said nothing of these indiscretions, harmful words, or self-elevating other-effacing expressions.

His infraction was 'not' for a spiritual argument, but an incorrect crude comment about another's theology that had nothing to do with sexuality, nor especially perverted sexuality with the living God.

Well, I just hope he is not banned for too long... He was wrong to jump on that sexual business, and a rebuke is certainly in order, but he has repented of it, and stopped... Even though he keeps mentioning how he still thinks it was not all that inappropriate...

He just gets on that brainiac bicycle of his and the chips fall where they may - I get a kick out of his rants, but they can go astray, and he needs to learn to reign in some words... Mental brilliance is no guarantee of doctrinal rectitude...

Good news for him is that his books arrived, and now he has some time to actually sit down and READ...

And the Orthodox are now in Holy Week, and as usual remain outside worldly time-frames... In the services of Holy Week, time is inverted, and morning and evening services are reversed, for ALL is being restored...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Eastern Orthodox do confuse the Spirit as only proceeding from the Father

We simply acknowledge two ontologies of origin from the Father:

First, the Begottenness of the Son...

Second, the Procession of the Holy Spirit...

We do not mean, in Procession, the economic proceding of having been sent forth BY the Father... Instead, we speak of the manner of origination from the Father alone, so that the Holy Spirit has God the Father as His ONLY Source of 'existence', as it were...

He, the Holy Spirit, is not the product of some combined effort of the Father AND the Son, as the Latin Confession falsely proclaims, but instead He proceeds from the Father alone in His Ontology, and yet can be SENT FORTH by the Father and/or the Son, and thereby be PROCEEDING TOWARD/TO in a particular action [ekonomia]...

The Creed, you see, was written for confessing His MANNER OF ORIGINATION from the Father, just as it was written for the Son's MANNER OF ORIGINATION from the Father... The grammatical construction is parallel - Begotten from and not Proceeds from... And vice versa...

The Latins now have re-configured their understanding to say that the Holy Spirit does indeed have the Father for His sole Origin, but that He proceeds THROUGH the Son INTO the world...

AAarrrggghhhhh!

Such is the destructive power of adding one little word...

Arsenios

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Was there confusion? I feel, though PPS certainly could have been exceedingly gracious, he was not. He didn't bother to PM me, or anything of the sort. He said to go ahead and report it.
Here is where it started:


This is an odd question for one who understands Christ as God. I was questioned first on it by a 1Mind, who is a Unitarian so it was an odd thing to be questioned by a person who claims to be triune. PPS's next comment supported a Unitarian, against a triune doctrine.

First let me correct you on my being a unitarian.

You folks who are of organized religion are not very intuitive.

With unitarianism, as well as all other isms, I draw the line when man's ideas go against the truth God has revealed to me.

I had no idea that unitarians thought Jesus was not around before his incarnation.

Other than that they have nothing that nullifies truth, that I've heard from them..

Like I said, the territory I came up through left no room for organised religion or the opinions of those who thought they could buy what only God and his son can give.

Nobody here has been able to hang a handle on me since I got here.

There is only one and it is son of God.

The truth of the matter is that the Lord has shown Pnuema, who came up through those ranks of organised religion, the same truths he has shown me.

Another glaring truth for those of us in the know, is organised religion is carnal and at enmity with God.

While you are whining about it, condescending towards me about it, it is my earnest desire for you to at least wake up enuff to own yer folly.

It has become clear that despite Pnuemas efforts as being formerly one of yer own, it will take an act of God.

 

[Tambora]

I had no idea that unitarians thought Jesus was not around before his incarnation.

Other than that they have nothing that nullifies truth, that I've heard from them..

That is a very big "other".

 

[Psalmist]

These verses read like Trinity affirmations...and I agree with myself.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That is a very big "other".

Agreed.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

These verses read like Trinity affirmations...and I agree with myself.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

So like......

What's the Father's name?

What's the Holy Spirit's name?

I know the son's name is Jesus.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

That is a very big "other".

I challenge you to show in scripture where Jesus was around before His birth.

LA

 

[Psalmist]

These verses read like Trinity affirmations...and I agree with myself.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.​

So like......

What's the Father's name?

What's the Holy Spirit's name?

I know the son's name is Jesus.

I do not know except the Father would be Jehovah, the Son would be Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be Comforter/Helper, that's the way I see it.

Jesus gave the command and since He did and said "in the name of the..." it probably best to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit and leave it at that.

Maybe you 1Mind1Spirit can tell us.
​

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I challenge you to show in scripture where Jesus was around before His birth.

LA

PROVERBS 8

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth ; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled , before the hills was I brought forth :

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise , and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[Lon]

The Latins now have re-configured their understanding to say that the Holy Spirit does indeed have the Father for His sole Origin, but that He proceeds THROUGH the Son INTO the world...

AAarrrggghhhhh!

Such is the destructive power of adding one little word...

Arsenios

Thanks.

Within our hallowed walls, the Trinitarian doctrine is debated and I honor all who call the Son God as the Father and Spirit are God. So, with Tri- and -une intact, we have a good company.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I do not know except the Father would be Jehovah, the Son would be Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would Comforter/Helper, that's the way I see it.

Jesus gave the command and since He did and said "in the name of the..." it probably best to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit and leave it at that.

Maybe you 1Mind1Spirit can tell us.
​

Not in this section of TOL.

Oh subtle one.

 

[Lon]

First let me correct you on my being a unitarian.
...
There is only one and it is son of God.

I appreciate correction, but we argued about God's triunity in the past. Such left me wondering about your orthodoxy. If you could explain a bit further, your understanding, that'd be helpful. Thanks.

The truth of the matter is that the Lord has shown Pnuema, who came up through those ranks of organised religion, the same truths he has shown me.

That's good. I only reported him for a blatant affront toward EO. Let's agree where we agree and ONLY disagree where we have to. Orthodoxy (truth) shares.

Another glaring truth for those of us in the know, is organised religion is carnal and at enmity with God.

Way too broadly stated. We necessarily have to be organized or we couldn't be one body, with all members belonging to all the others. Scripture calls us to be 'organized.' I'd assume you mean 'some' here.
You don't consider all Baptists carnal and against God, do you? Or all Methodists? There are some that are very evangelical against the main liberal denomination.

While you are whining about it, condescending towards me about it, it is my earnest desire for you to at least wake up enuff to own yer folly.

Whining? :idunno: There isn't any.

It has become clear that despite Pnuemas efforts as being formerly one of yer own, it will take an act of God.

No, don't get me wrong. He even flamed out at me. I did two things: 1) I called him on his ungodly sexual accusation of which he responded "report me." So I did.
2) Unrelated, I corrected two of his statements, of which he ridiculed. I don't really care about that. He can do as he likes regarding a correction. I find it childish and inappropriate, but I'm not the thought police. Such marginalizes what I thought to be a friendship, but again, that is all very one-sided. I would report any friend for the former and have come to expect fair-weather friends on TOL. Sad, but a fact of reality. I am not, nor ever will be a fair-weather friend. A few TOL friends no longer think of me in those terms. It doesn't matter to me, I don't spin on a dime. They will remain my friends whether they want me or not or de-friend me. That isn't my responsibility. My responsibility is to show myself a friend.

-Lon

 

[patrick jane]

I challenge you to show in scripture where Jesus was around before His birth.

LA

Psalmist just did, right after your original post here - atrol:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I appreciate correction, but we argued about God's triunity in the past. Such left me wondering about your orthodoxy. If you could explain a bit further, your understanding, that'd be helpful. Thanks.


That's good. I only reported him for a blatant affront toward EO. Let's agree where we agree and ONLY disagree where we have to. Orthodoxy (truth) shares.


Way too broadly stated. We necessarily have to be organized or we couldn't be one body, with all members belonging to all the others. Scripture calls us to be 'organized.' I'd assume you mean 'some' here.
You don't consider all Baptists carnal and against God, do you? Or all Methodists? There are some that are very evangelical against the main liberal denomination.


Whining? :idunno: There isn't any.


No, don't get me wrong. He even flamed out at me. I did two things: 1) I called him on his ungodly sexual accusation of which he responded "report me." So I did.
2) Unrelated, I corrected two of his statements, of which he ridiculed. I don't really care about that. He can do as he likes regarding a correction. I find it childish and inappropriate, but I'm not the thought police. Such marginalizes what I thought to be a friendship, but again, that is all very one-sided. I would report any friend for the former and have come to expect fair-weather friends on TOL. Sad, but a fact of reality. I am not, nor ever will be a fair-weather friend. A few TOL friends no longer think of me in those terms. It doesn't matter to me, I don't spin on a dime. They will remain my friends whether they want me or not or de-friend me. That isn't my responsibility. My responsibility is to show myself a friend.

-Lon

Notice.......

Nowhere in "son of God" do you see ism or ist.

Wake up.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Psalmist just did, right after your original post here - atrol:

No.

I did.

Psalmist cannot answer what God or the Holy Spirit's names are.