I wasn't disagreeing with Jesus. You missed the mark in your criticism. You might want to read the bit you responded to again...or you might not. Who really knows with you?
Let's see, I said, “You haven't paid much attention to the words of the Nicene Creed either, have you?”
You said, “The foundation being false the "either" can only be more of the same.”
To which I said, “Make up your mind; you're either for Him or against Him. The foundation is Yeshua.”
Then you said, “If you're going to question anyone else's reading comprehension you'll need to do a little better with this sort of thing.”
So I said, “Will you take it straight from Yeshua? 'Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.' Matthew 12:30
You want to claim that the foundation of Christianity is the writings and understandings of man as opposed to the Words of God and of Yeshua. That's just messed up. I don't think I can get any more
lain: than that!”
And you posted this, “I wasn't disagreeing with Jesus. You missed the mark in your criticism. You might want to read the bit you responded to again...or you might not. Who really knows with you?”
So let me recap. When I posted that you haven't paid much attention to the words of the Nicene Creed either, the “either” I was referring to was Yeshua's own words. You claim both His Word and the words of the Nicene Creed to be false so I reminded you that He is our only foundation. (I'd already explained the words of the Nicene Creed to you; you know, God OF God, very God OF very God) When you told me I'd need to do better I just couldn't think of anything better than Yeshua's own Words and I can't figure out how you could have possibly posted that you weren't disagreeing with Yeshua when, in truth, that is exactly what you were doing.
No, though Christ never literally penned anything that we know of, leaving that to the men who knew and loved him. Paul spoke to a great deal of what Christ/God had to say about Himself. How are you with Paul, I wonder. I know how meshak is...or rather isn't.
No deflection here.
When you declare, like so many before you have, that acceptance of your flavor of the doctrine of the Trinity is a requirement to be a member of the Body of Yeshua and the words of a doctrine take precedence over the Words of God and Yeshua, you're off base. You're scattering as opposed to gathering. I take no issue with Paul, as you well know, other than the same issue Peter took with him.
lain: Oh, I think you came in pretty much as fobbed off as a person could be and it's been downhill ever since.
I am under no delusion that you pay much heed to me and if you don't wish me to question your reading comprehension you shouldn't make statements like this.
I've also posted a bit of corroboration in relation to your odd notion that I'm reading in something new. If you look at my last you'll see the orthodoxy of Christendom on display, from its earliest incarnation to the agreement of newer, vital branches of the Christian faith.
When you declare that Yeshua IS God as in He is the Father, you've read in something new because the Nicene Creed makes no declaration to that effect and why, when Yeshua never stated such, would you defer to any who make that claim and extol them as vital? One can not have an understanding of the Trinity without having an understanding of the relationship between Yeshua and the Father and you seem to dismiss that relationship, ascribing all power and glory to the Son as opposed to the Father. You don't seem to understand the proclivity of this twist of the doctrine of the Trinity to destroy the Headship. It's subtle...but it's there!
More reason to question your reading comprehension.
You're confused on the roles vs nature business. It happens.
No, I'm not. I'm bent on clinging to God's Word as opposed to man's.
Again, I can refer you to the orthodoxy, complete with scriptural support.
I've already posted what Scripture tells us is the orthodoxy of the Faith, Town. There's nothing better than Yeshua.
When I pray to God I'm speaking to God. That's the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They're one, so this isn't you vs me, it's you vs the overwhelming belief of Christendom and scripture as read by it and examined by the Church Fathers.
When you pray to God, you are praying to the Father and because you pray in Yeshua's Name, He will accept your praises and grant your petitions if they are His Will. Yes, they are One but They are Three.
So you say. But they rightly knew that only God can forgive sin, which is one thing they would hold and use against Jesus.
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” John 10:33
20 When He saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Luke 5:20,21
As to what Jesus said of himself:
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple,[a] going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
Again, John 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." Yeshua was clearly stating that He is not God, the Father.
No one has said Jesus called himself the Father. No one has said he called himself the Holy Spirit. So that's deceptive of you, your ongoing attempt that wraps itself around an assumption that the Father and Son and Spirit aren't coeternal and of one substance, literally one being in three persons.
What is deceptive is stating that Yeshua is God without explaining the relationship between the Father and Yeshua. What is deceptive is declaring that belief in the doctrine of the Trinity and standing on that is what makes one a Christian when the Truth is that it is belief in God and Yeshua that makes one a Christian. What is deceptive are your constant misrepresentations of my words as I have never declared that the Father is not eternal, I have never declared that God's Son is not eternal and of One substance with the Father, I have never declared that Yeshua is not in the Father as the Father is in Him. I have declared the correct doctrine of the Trinity as explained by Yeshua Himself, exposed the false twist on the doctrine and the hooey arrogant snobbery of some Christians.
If you preach another gospel you're to be opposed, because you lead men to sin and to death. It isn't my salvation I'm concerned over.
Go posture someplace else! Salvation has nothing to do with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity but rather with faith in God and Yeshua, His Son. A false gospel is a claim that something/someone other than Yeshua is the way to life with God when Yeshua said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
I don't recall tying them together, except that I've spoken about the latter in a thread ostensibly about the former, though I've spoken to that too.
I didn't say you did, only that you are stepping all over the point of this thread which is the discussion of OSAS. You don't like it when folks mess up your threads, do you?
I don't care if you agree with me about OSAS,
Wundebar!
though some will take issue with me on it, argue that if you don't believe in assurance then you believe in the work you do, in some sense, to save you. If that's the case then you're following another false gospel.
My understanding on the point is that anyone who believes their salvation secure seeks God and His pleasure not from obedience in fear of punishment but out of gratitude and a love for the root of their own unmerited salvation and in hope that God will use their witness to draw others to Him. That Him being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And this is mine: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:1-6 In addition to this: "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." 2 Peter 3:17
