"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[God's Truth]

But you said:

You are a walking contradiction!

JESUS FULFILLED the LAW and the prophets.

The ceremonial works were a SHADOW of Jesus. They were teaching tools.

Obeying God is NOT a shadow!

 

[elohiym]

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Yes, just like Paul did in Romans 13.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[heir]

NO! James is speaking of the ROYAL LAW!!!

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

The WHOLE LAW means the WHOLE LAW! You claim James is written TO you, yet don't do as James says. You claim that everything the Lord said is TO you, yet don't do what the Lord says.

You are a poser.

 

[elohiym]

JESUS FULFILLED the LAW and the prophets.

The ceremonial works were a SHADOW of Jesus. They were teaching tools.

Obeying God is NOT a shadow!

Right again!

Poor Heir can't seem to overcome your arguments.

 

[God's Truth]

The law was still in effect all the way up to Acts 20 for the little flock. They were never commanded to NOT keep it!

The Pharisees who SAT IN MOSES' seat made the Jews keep the old law, or else the Jews would have been prosecuted, put in jail, tortured, and even put to death. That was while the temple was still standing.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, just like Paul did in Romans 13.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes! All the apostles taught the same things and it was the NEW COVENANT.


Paul is speaking to the Corinthian Gentiles. Paul says he is a minister of a NEW COVENANT.


2 Corinthians 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life

 

[God's Truth]

The WHOLE LAW means the WHOLE LAW! You claim James is written TO you, yet don't do as James says. You claim that everything the Lord said is TO you, yet don't do what the Lord says.

You are a poser.

The Law commanded various external washings, to make ourselves clean. Jesus fulfilled that Law for us---his blood makes us clean, once and for all.

The Law commanded that we observe special days. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because ALL those special days are about Jesus, when we observe Jesus, we observe those special days---Jesus is our Sabbath rest. Jesus is our Passover, etc.

The Law said blood must be shed for the forgiveness of sins, we were told to give animal sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled that Law, because he is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.


See, Jesus fulfilled the law. Since we have salvation through Jesus, it is a greater salvation. Is it greater to observe the Son of God instead of special days? Is it better to be cleaned by the blood of God than by animals? Is it better to be circumcised in the heart by the Holy Spirit, than with a physical circumcision done by the hands of men?

The Jews had to do certain ceremonial things, just to go to the temple to worship God.

Through Jesus, we are made clean, and we become the temple of the Living God.

Circumcision, special days, various external washings, and the sacrifice of animals...these were all teachings tools, a shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Right again!

Poor Heir can't seem to overcome your arguments.

They must have heard about the goodness of God and what Jesus had done for them. They were taught about faith, but then their false teachers taught them faith only.

Even Solomon, the son of King David had to search for God on his own.

We search for God by finding Jesus' teachings.

We find God by obeying Jesus' teachings.

 

[God's Truth]

1 Chronicles 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.

Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.


Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.


Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.


Matthew 7:8
For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

[God's Truth]

The WHOLE LAW means the WHOLE LAW! You claim James is written TO you, yet don't do as James says. You claim that everything the Lord said is TO you, yet don't do what the Lord says.

You are a poser.

Jesus did not die so that you could keep sinning but say you are not.

Jesus died for those who fear God and do right.

See Acts 10:35.

 

[God's Truth]

But you said:

You are a walking contradiction!

Those CEREMONIAL laws were about what was coming, Jesus Christ.

Jesus came and died, and rose again. Jesus fulfilled those works.

Jesus makes us clean. Observing special days, circumcision, the dietary laws, special baths and the sacrifice of animals were just teaching tools about Jesus.

Jesus walked the earth and gave us the commands for the NEW Covenant.

Covenant's of blood must be followed exactly.

You must do exactly as Jesus says to enter the New Covenant.

You must believe and repent of your sins, and call on his name.

You are then to live your life pleasing the Lord, and that is done by continuing to obey him.

 

[Shasta]

where does scripture command us to take communion at a church ? i'll save you some time, it doesn't -

"This do in remembrance of me" was taken by all the Early Christians from the First century onwards to be a command instituting the eucharist. Where it was to be taken was not specified. To early believers who met in houses the word "Church" would not have meant a place but rather the assembly. We know they practiced it because the Romans who persecuted them used to accuse them of eating flesh and drinking blood.

 

[Shasta]

Yes, just like Paul did in Romans 13.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

I agree. Unlike the ceremonial, dietary and civil law the moral element of the law was never done away with because it is God's eternal will for all of mankind. In fact, one of His main purposes in making the New Covenant was to enable us to exhibit character like Christ's through the power of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:33).

Paul affirmed this also when he wrote:

(He did this)...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

He does not say so that we would be freed from the guilt of sin and then live in it anyway. This scripture is about not being forgiven but our actually exhibiting the character of Christ through the Spirit.

 

[Shasta]

Do you believe in OSAS?

I think is is clear that I don't. I changed my views on that subject when I was 17 even though I was a Baptist and it was not the position of my Church. That being said I have never imagined I could in my own strength keep the whole law. I do not think about it much really. My focus is on trusting in relying on and believing in Him. He is the only good thing in me and He enables me to do the right thing which is to love people. If I do otherwise I ask forgiveness.

 

[Shasta]

Shasta, you were just complaining about my, non-participation in the
discussion at hand, now you won't answer questions, ask questions, or
participate? Is this the "silent treatment?" Did I hurt your feelings?

No, I just have an idea that I am being tested somehow and that whatever I say might be used in evidence against me in some debate. I am not a member of a cult. My Church is a standard evangelical type which believes all the doctrines that are found in the Apostles Creed. That being said we are not "reformed" and do not believe in OSAS or perseverance.

 

[Shasta]

How many times do you get to sin before it's considered a "lifestyle of sin" or habitual sin?

Adam and Eve only sinned once and look what happened.



If you sin again after that, it's obvious that you were not cleansed from "all unrighteousness."



The context is "anybody" that sins, not believers.

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

As a believer, can you commit any of the acts Paul listed in Galatians 5:19-21? Yes or no? Paul doesn't say you can occasionally covet and Jesus will be your advocate; rather, he states those that covet will be not inherit the kingdom, and in another passage he states believers should not associate or eat with "so-called" brothers that covet.

I think Stan is right. The idea that we sin but should not pursue a "lifestyle" of sin is clear in the writings of John. The Greek present tense which John often uses indicates that the action (in this case, sin) is ongoing and repetitive. A "walk" is not one step but a whole pattern of life. When he says "if anyone sins he has an advocate" he uses the past tense to show that it is about committing a sin and not living in it.

A lifestyle of sin cannot be precisely measured by "how many times" a person sins. A pattern of sin develops like cancer. It begins locally then proliferates metastasizing until it dominates. As the thorns choke the new life we eventually get to the place where our conscience is hardened and we do not care anymore.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Way to miss her point.

…10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?…

Way to miss my point.

With whom does God's Truth "keep company" (1 Corinthians 5:11 KJV), if God's Truth, is never found, in "a church?" Where people take communion, in remembrance of our Lord Jesus Christ?




DJ

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[Dan Emanuel]

…23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."…

Should you do it?

Me personally, or generally?

What are you driving at?


DJ

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[elohiym]

I agree. Unlike the ceremonial, dietary and civil law the moral element of the law was never done away with because it is God's eternal will for all of mankind. In fact, one of His main purposes in making the New Covenant was to enable us to exhibit character like Christ's through the power of the Holy Spirit (Jeremiah 31:33).

Amen. But here's a tough question for you, friend: If you still covet, has the law against coveting been written in your heart? As I understand it, to have the law against coveting written in your heart is to never covet again.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

Show me in the Bible where it says the more you read the Bible the more understanding you get.

Psalm 119:11 KJV


DJ

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