Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Christine

From man's point of view, it may have looked like God repented of making man, or "repented" of saying he'd destroy Nineveh. Men describe the sun as "rising" and "setting" even though it's the earth, not the sun, that moves. So, was God's describing the events as how they appeared to the observer. Yet we're told in 1 Samuel 15:29, "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. When God "repents" He is doing what He's promised all along, not punishing sinners that are repentant. Did God change His mind? Of course not! Man "repented" or changed, not God.

Christine it's interesting that you bring up 1st Samuel 15:29 as that chapter may be the strongest chapter in the Bible describing the manner in which God repents.

Yep.. that's right! I said STRONGEST!

You see.... if you read the entire chapter you will see that God is explaining His repentance in making Saul king. And in verse 29 He is merely stating He isn't going to repent of the judgment He has brought against Saul.

Let's take a look shall we?

God was extremely upset with Saul and God said...

1Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. 17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? 18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Samuel tells Saul that God is upset with him...

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Saul admits his sin...

24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Saul wants God to repent of His judgement of Saul...

25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

But Samuel tells Saul God is NOT going to repent and turn back in Sauls favor...

26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. 31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD. 32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.

And again God makes clear that He repented for making Saul king...

35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

you may find this to be of interest.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=651

Thanks GIT!

I for one appreciate the reference.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

Relax=remove in my mind.

We do not have to wallow in guilt, but rejoice in forgiveness. Satan tries to get us to remember. The reality is that we CAN remember if we want. God knows my every thought. Logically and by definition, an omniscient being would know my thoughts of my previous sin. I do not know more than the omniscient God. My point is that forgiveness does not mean amnesia biblically. It means that God choses to not bring up our sins or hold them against us due to redemption. He casts them as far as the east is from the west. This is figurative in that sins are not literal, physical items that can be thrown in the sea. Sins are choices that have affects, but they are not atomic/molecular/substance.

Well, this would not be knowing more than God. It would only be knowing something God does not.

But I do not believe that is possible.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Christine

From man's point of view, it may have looked like God repented of making man, or "repented" of saying he'd destroy Nineveh. Men describe the sun as "rising" and "setting" even though it's the earth, not the sun, that moves. So, was God's describing the events as how they appeared to the observer. Yet we're told in 1 Samuel 15:29, "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. When God "repents" He is doing what He's promised all along, not punishing sinners that are repentant. Did God change His mind? Of course not! Man "repented" or changed, not God.

Seeing as how the verses state that God repented...

They don't say that god seemed to repent. They say He repented. I especially like Jonah 3:9:
"Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Nineveh didn't know if God would repent or not, but they certainly thought it possible. They, too, must have been Open Theists. And it seems Jonah was, as well.

Only numbers in prophecy have meaning? What about other numbers like "seven" or "three?" Many would say they have significance as well, and if they have significance, why couldn't the number "forty?"

You're the one who said Jonah's warning wasn't a prophecy. I merely contend that numbers mean something other than the number itself, in prophecy. But in reality, three means nothing more than three. Christ was in the ground for three days. There is no alternate meaning there. So, in order for you to say that the number forty, in this instance, had a special meaning, you would have to admit that it was a prophecy. But I don't have to believe it had a special meaning for this to be prophecy, because numbers are not always symbols in prophecy.

You think God could have interferred with man on earth to bring something about? Interesting, I've had other OV'ers tell me that in this present age God does not interfer with man.

Those people are stupid.

All that appeared to be God's original plan, but God knew all along that Israel would want a king. God wasn't surprised when they wanted one, it's human nature to want to be like those around you. Israel wanted to be like the surrounding nations.

:yawn:

Time isn't real?

No. Not the human concept of it, anyway. This is why time travel is impossible, because the past no longer exists, and the future never has.

Just because God kept the Body secret until Paul's conversion doesn't mean it was "Plan B."

Can you prove it wasn't?

Everyone in the whole world?

Yes. That is why the blood of Christ was shed for all. But those who deny it have chosen not to be made holy.

If God knew and had the Body planned before he'd laid the "foundation of the earth," doesn't that mean He knew Adam and Eve were going to sin?

No. He knew it was a possibility, so His Son's death was an "in case," as was the dispensation of grace.

God does not change His mind, it just seems like that to man. What really happens is man repents/changes mind, making it so God does not have to bring forth judgement.

:crackup:

The part I put in bold is surprising coming from an OV'er. I thought the OV view of God was trying to draw all men to Him, not blinding some.

:doh:

God is blinding those who are to face the wrath of the Lamb. But, in that, He will draw all men unto Himself. And many will still reject Him. Poor lost souls, they be.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Knight

Christine it's interesting that you bring up 1st Samuel 15:29 as that chapter may be the strongest chapter in the Bible describing the manner in which God repents.

Yep.. that's right! I said STRONGEST!

You see.... if you read the entire chapter you will see that God is explaining His repentance in making Saul king. And in verse 29 He is merely stating He isn't going to repent of the judgment He has brought against Saul.

Let's take a look shall we?

God was extremely upset with Saul and God said...

1Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. 17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? 18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Samuel tells Saul that God is upset with him...

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Saul admits his sin...

24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Saul wants God to repent of His judgement of Saul...

25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

But Samuel tells Saul God is NOT going to repent and turn back in Sauls favor...

26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. 31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD. 32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.

And again God makes clear that He repented for making Saul king...

35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

:BRAVO:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by lighthouse

:BRAVO:

Thanks! I hope Christine takes a good look and responds.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Hilston

That is incorrect, Yorzhik. It is directly figurative. All descriptions of God are figurative.

including "all knowing" and "unchanging" ?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by deardelmar

including "all knowing" and "unchanging" ?

:think:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by logos_x

Thanks GIT!

I for one appreciate the reference.

you're most welcome

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Christine... when you get a chance....

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Knight

Christine... when you get a chance....

:shut:

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by SOTK

Of course He would, but would He? Of course, He would have to limit His own power to do this. I suppose He could if He wanted to, however, I don't believe God purposely limits His own power. Do you think He does?



God doesn't 'have' to know anything. His knowing is probably a natural result of His infinite power. In other words, He knows because He is. I am not sure it's a matter of 'have'. I believe it's a matter of 'does'.

In answer to your other question, I would say the same as I said above. I believe God is powerful enough to do just about anything He wants to. The question would be "Would God purposely limit his own power in creating an open future?" Again, I am not sure yet if He ever would.

I don't see how God not knowing every detail of the future would mean his power has limits. It would only mean that he exercised discretion over how he used his power.

 

[Delmar]

Christine
Either phrases like "God was sorry" do not mean exactly what I think they mean, or Biblical descriptions of God being "all knowing" and " all powerful" do not imply what you infer! The problem I'm having is that the only evidence you offer against all the scripture that shows God responding to the actions of man, is that God is all knowing.

Originally posted by Christine

Lighthouse,
By saying that God doesn't know the future is a direct contradiction of many passages of scripture. God says "He is, and which was, and which is to come" (Rev 1:8) Limiting God to someone with the mind of a human is, indeed, patetic.

The verse you site here says nothing about knowing all is to come and in no way contradicts an open veiw. I certainly believe God is, and which was, and which is to come!

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Knight

Christine it's interesting that you bring up 1st Samuel 15:29 as that chapter may be the strongest chapter in the Bible describing the manner in which God repents.

Yep.. that's right! I said STRONGEST!

Is it really the strongest evidence for the Open View? Let's see......

God was extremely upset with Saul and God said...

1Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. 17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? 18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.

Samuel tells Saul that God is upset with him...

19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD? 20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal. 22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Saul admits his sin...

24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.

Saul wants God to repent of His judgement of Saul...

25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD.

But Samuel tells Saul God is NOT going to repent and turn back in Sauls favor...

26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. 31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD. 32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.

And again God makes clear that He repented for making Saul king...

35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Knight,

Having read the chapter, it's amazing that some claim that this passage supports God changing. When God says throughout this chapter that he "repented" or "was sorry" "that He had made Saul king over Israel," God had a special reason for using those phrases ("repented" or "was sorry").

Every time these phrases are used in this chapter with reference to God, it is a figure of speech called an Anthropopathia. An Anthropopathia is where God ascribes human characteristics to himself. God didn't have to use a figure of speech to get His point across, but He did to put extra emphasis on the message. The message that needed extra emphasis? God had wanted the Amalekites completely destroyed due to their idolatry and demonic offspring. In order to ensure the Messianic line stayed pure, the Amalekites had to be destroyed.

King Saul had little interest in keeping the line pure, and more interest in greed and pride. Thus, the reason for God using these figures of speech was to show that God means it when He says the Messianic line must stay pure, and that if Saul is not going to aid in keeping the line pure, he will not be king.

God raised up David to be king because David was "a man after God's own heart," meaning David had a desire to keep the Messianic line pure and wipe out those that were preventing it.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Christine
Having read the chapter, it's amazing that some claim that this passage supports God changing. When God says throughout this chapter that he "repented" or "was sorry" "that He had made Saul king over Israel," God had a special reason for using those phrases ("repented" or "was sorry").

And that would help your case how?

Every time these phrases are used in this chapter with reference to God, it is a figure of speech called an Anthropopathia. An Anthropopathia is where God ascribes human characteristics to himself.

This of course is the standard Calvinistic response. But how does that response change anything? If God is using a figure of speech when He says He repented what does the figure of speech mean?

Figures of speech don't complicate what God is trying to say.... yet they simplify and clarify what God is trying to say.

So if "repent" in 1st Samuel 15:11 & 15:35 is a figure of speech please explain to me what the figure of speech means.

Asked another way...
When you say... "An Anthropopathia is where God ascribes human characteristics to himself." And if "repent" is a "Anthropopathia" what type of behavior is God describing of Himself?

And a final question...
Why isn't the "repent" in 1st Samuel 15: 29 also a anthropopathia?

After all that was the verse you brought up in the first place.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by deardelmar

I don't see how God not knowing every detail of the future would mean his power has limits. It would only mean that he exercised discretion over how he used his power.

Or it could just mean that the future doesn't exist.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Or it could just mean that the future doesn't exist.

right the future doesn't exist and is open because he hasn't locked all future events into place by making us robots that can only do what he wants.

 

[Lighthouse]

Exactly.:thumb:

 

[STONE]

The futre has always existed for the creator... since the beginning of time. Christine has done very well at defending her position.
Further, it in no way affects 'free will' for God to know your futre.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

The futre has always existed for the creator... since the beginning of time. Christine has done very well at defending her position.
Further, it in no way affects 'free will' for God to know your futre.