ONLY Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no God
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Elia
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Apple7
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We have never expected that you could actualy stand and defend anything that you mindlessly repost, ad nausea...:rotfl:
Elia
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Bs'd
I never expected you to be able to give a definition of your idolatrous "trinity".
But I'll do it for you:
Definition of the trinity:
The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
I never expected you to be able to give a definition of your idolatrous "trinity".
But I'll do it for you:
Definition of the trinity:
The trinity is an idolatrous concept, taken from pagan religions much older than Christianity, and it is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible.
It is a desparate attempt to turn two gods; God the Father and the Christian god the son, into one God, because the Bible teaches that there is only one God. The trinity says 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. It claims there is one God, made up of three persons.
It is illogical, extra-Biblical, and flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” – Thomas Jefferson
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The Christians gave up on the trinity debate.
Hereby the pagan extra-Biblical unlogical trinity goes out the window, and we'll reinstitute the Biblical fact that GOD IS ONE:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message
"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
The word translated as God is "Elohim" in Genesis 1 which means "Gods" in the plural form, but it is singular. How can 3 be working as 1? it is because Jesus was always part of God himself. Father, son, and holy ghost.
John 1:1-4 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
v. 14 "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Jesus was not always a man, he came down to the earth, robed in human flesh.
John 1:1-4 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
v. 14 "14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Jesus was not always a man, he came down to the earth, robed in human flesh.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
"Elohiem" is singular, unless the context unequivocally shows it must be plural.
There is only one God who is one, and not three.
Only Y-H-W-H is God, and NOBODY else.
The trinity simply doesn't exist, not in Gods word, the Hebrew Bible, and not in the NT.
"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
ok, what about Gen. 1:26 where it says "26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
The word "God" in hebrew, is "elohiym" meaning "Gods", can you explain this to me?
The spirit of God is also part of God, correct? If i'm not mistaken, there are jewish rabbis who mention that there are three persons in ONE God. If you were to examine the suffering servant of isaiah 53, it's not speaking of israel.
The word "God" in hebrew, is "elohiym" meaning "Gods", can you explain this to me?
The spirit of God is also part of God, correct? If i'm not mistaken, there are jewish rabbis who mention that there are three persons in ONE God. If you were to examine the suffering servant of isaiah 53, it's not speaking of israel.
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
setstats
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”
Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
Here is a Christian file on the word "elohiem":
Elohim and Echad
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.
Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.
To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.
Each claim will now be examined.
Elohim
Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.
So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?
In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.
Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.
Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].
What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.
Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":
The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).
Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":
The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).
But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]
Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]
The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]
Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]
Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!
As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."
Psalm 22:1,2,10
1 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!
Echad
The other main argument from the Hebrew used to teach that God is a "plural" entity is that the Hebrew word echad in the shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 means, not a simple "one", but rather a "compound unity" of one, a "togetherness". Those who teach this will often also teach than there is a different word for a "simple" one, yachid, so that the absence of this word in Deuteronomy 6:4 is, apparently to them, significant.
First, it should be noted that when one learns the Hebrew numbers, it is echad, not yachid, that is the Hebrew for the number "one": echad is one, shenayim is two, shalosh is three, arba is four, etc. Any Hebrew grammar book, whether of Biblical or modern Hebrew, would demonstrate that echad, not yachid, is the everyday Hebrew word for the numeral "one".
And when one looks in the Tanakh itself at the frequency and usage of the two words - echad and yachid - it is very quickly and easily seen that echad, not yachid, is in fact the standard Hebrew word for a simple one. Echad is used over 900 times in the Hebrew Bible, making it the most frequently used adjective in the Tanakh. Here are some examples of its usage where the word "one" is translated from echad: "one place" (Gen. 1:9); "one man" (Gen. 42:13); "one law" (Ex. 12:49); "one side" (Ex. 25:12); "one ewe lamb" (Lev. 14:10); "one of his brethren" (Lev. 25:48); "one rod" (Num. 17:3); "one soul" (Num. 31:28); "one of these cities" (Deut. 4:42); "one way" (Deut. 28:7); "one ephah" (1 Sam. 1:24); "one went out into the field" (11 Kings 4:39); "one shepherd" (Ezek. 37:24); "one basket" (Jer. 24:2); "one [thing]" (Ps. 27:4); "Two are better than one" (Ecc. 4:9); "one day or two" (Ezra 10:13).
Sometimes it is simply part of a number, like "eleven" (echad + 'asar, one plus ten), in , for example Genesis 32:22. Sometimes it is as well translated by an indefinite article (a[n]): "a new cart" (1 Sam. 6:7); "a juniper tree" (1 Kings 19:4,5); "a book" (Jer. 51:60).
Perhaps most importantly, echad clearly has the meaning of single, alone, ONLY one, or JUST one, the ideal of a limit of one (Num. 10:4; Josh. 17:14; Esth. 4:11; Isa. 51:2). In Deuteronomy 17:6, for example, it really isn't precise English to translate echad merely as "one". For if the "one" witness referred to is the second of the third witness, then that one witness is enough to convict the hypothetical person of murder. The meaning is that a person must not be put to death of the evidence of only one witness (which is the way the NRSV translates it). Echad means "one" and ONLY one.
Some make the argument that because echad is used in passages such as Gen. 1:5 (evening and morning were "day one [echad]", or "first day"), Gen. 2:24 (a husband and wife shall be "one" flesh) and Ezek. 37:17 (two sticks are to become "one" stick), echad is therefore meant to be understood as some kind of a compound unity. To begin with, such examples make up but a very small minority of the uses of echad, the vast majority being of the variety listed above. It is improper exegesis to define a word on the basis of a small percentage of its usage. But even this extreme minority of usage does not mean that echad actually has a different meaning than a simply one in these passages. In Gen. 1:5, "day" is the word that has "parts" to it (i.e., "evening" and "morning" make up the day), not echad. In Gen. 2:24, "flesh" acts as the collective noun (what the man and the woman as comprise together). [12] The key factor in all such passages - a factor missing from Deut. 6:4 - is that two or more "parts" are mentioned, such that the reader can immediately discern that there is some kind of "coming together" of the people or things mentioned, usually for just one purpose or goal. Echad, in fact, must maintain its meaning of "just one" for these expressions to convey their intended sense. To make our point clear: Deut. 6:4 does not say, "YHWH our God, though three (or two or whatever plural number you like), is one." There is no hint of "coming together" here. The verse says that YHWH our God is plainly, simply, one.
Once again, scholarship is in agreement. The Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Lexicon, the standard Hebrew lexicon of the Bible used in seminaries, list eight ways echad is used - e.g. meaning "each/every," or "a certain," or "only," etc. - but there is no mention or hint in the entire echad article that echad ever means any kind of compound unity. [13] And the "echad" article in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament also nowhere teaches that echad implies a compound unity. It says that Deuteronomy 6:4 is essentially saying that YHWH is the one and only God for Israel (Vol. I p. 196).
Yachid, on the other hand, is a very rarely used word in the Tanakh, and it is employed in a special sense when it is used. It is found a grand total of 12 times in the entire Tanakh, three of those times in the same passage (Gen.22, referring to Isaac as Abraham's "only" son), so virtually any argument based on its absence from a Bible text is necessarily weak. Its meaning is restricted to a unique, priceless possession, whether a person or thing (Isaac in Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; one's soul - lit. "only one" - in Ps. 22:20(21), 35:17); or to solitary, desolate, isolated or lonely people (Ps. 25:16, 68:6(7)). There is a "neediness" seen in all that yachid applies to in the Tanakh. YHWH our God is not dependent on anyone. Based on Biblical usage, therefore, it would be entirely inappropriate to use yachid as an adjective for God for any reason.
Conclusion
In conclusion, neither the word Elohim nor the word echad supports the notion of a plurality in God. The plural form Elohim when used of God does not have to mean a plural entity. In Hebrew, plural forms can be singular in meaning. this is sometimes referred to as a plural of majesty or plural of rank. The very term elohim is used of single, foreign gods and of the Messiah. But YHWH is, in fact, always referred to by grammatically singular forms and used with verbs in the singular (even when the plural form Elohim is the subject). Finally, the Greek Old Testament, sometimes quoted in the New Testament, always translates the term for God - whether the Hebrew word is singular or plural - in the singular Greek form.
Echad, rather than being any kind of support for a plural God, teaches the opposite. It means "one" and "only one." God is one.
Final Word
It seems clear that the sole reason for these arguments attempting to teach a plural God from the Tanakh is a desire among many Christians and Christian originated Messianics to find Old Testament substantiation for the concept of the Trinity or some other form of plural God. But of course, that is no way to proceed in a Bible study. We must accept the definitions which the words reveal about themselves and how they are used in the Bible text, not what we would like them to mean. May God help us to accept what the Scripture has to say about who the true God is. "Yahweh our God is one single Person" (cp. Paul in Gal. 3:20: "God is only One Person," Amplified Version).
[1] Some Christians believe that God consists of the Father and Son only, and that the Holy Spirit is essentially God's active power, not a third Person.
[2] E.g., Gen. 23:1: Sarah's "life"
[3] E.g., Gen. 43:31: Joseph's "face"
[4] This is another word, like Elohim, which is a title denoting someone superior in rank. See "plurality of majesty" discussion below.
[5] The fact that Ps. 45:6(7) is viewed as messianic does not change the point: The Messiah is just one individual and yet is given the title of the plural (in form) Elohim. Some will use this verse, taken out of context, as "proof" that Yeshua Messiah is God because the term elohim (god) is applied to him. However, elohim can also mean rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, god, goddess, godlike one, etc. There is also a legitimate question regarding the verse's correct translation. The JPS Tanakh renders the verse as:
Psalm 45:7
7 Your divine throne is everlasting; your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.
The Stone Edition of the Tanakh renders it as:
Psalm 45:7
7 Your throne is from God, it is forever and ever, [for] the scepter of fairness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Nevertheless, as with virtually all verses that are incorrectly used as "proof" of Yeshua's deity, when the context is considered, it is proven that even if elohim is applied to Messiah in verse 6 (7 in JPS and Stone editions), he is still not "God." The very next verse shows this.
Psalm 45:7
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
Therefore, since God has anointed the one spoken of in verse 6, the one in verse 6 is obviously NOT God, but is god (little g), godlike, or a ruler, all of which perfectly describe the MAN, Yeshua the Messiah. Common sense dictates the one anointing and one being anointed are not the same entity.
[6] Two rather emphatic examples: 1 Kings 18:39 and 2 Sam. 7:28. The relevant part of the former reads, "YHWH, He is God [Elohim]; YHWH, He is God." The key portion of the latter reads, very literally, "Lord [adonay] YHWH, You [sing], He, [is] the God [Elohim]."
[7] God is translated from El in the following passages: Gen. 17:1, Ex. 34:6, Josh. 3:10, Isa. 5:16 and Ps. 29:3. From Eloah: Deut. 32:15, Neh. 9:17, Job 4:9 (used more often than Elohim in Job) and Ps. 114:7.
[8] E.g., Dan. 2:28, Ezra 5:2.
[9] Gen. 1:26 says, "Let us make..." where God is perhaps either referring to Himself in the plural (possibly another form of plural of majesty), or is condescending to His heavenly host (i.e., someone besides Elohim, reflecting the normal concept of any first person plural), bringing them into the creative act. "Make," of course, is plural in its Hebrew form. In the next verse, where Elohim actually performs the action, the verb for "made" is back to its singular form.
[10] The Hebrew word order may be relevant here as well. In Hebrew prose, the usual word order is that the verb precedes the noun. In Gen. 1:1, therefore, before the Hebrew reader even gets to the word Elohim, he or she reads "bara" ("created"), the third person masculine singular form, immediately telling him or her that the acting subject is singular in reality.
[11] See Heb. 1:6 for example, where a version of the LXX of Deut. 32:43 is quoted. The passage is quite different from the Hebrew text we now have and use.
[12] There wouldn't be much point in saying, "The two shall be two fleshes." The unity intended is obviously that of purpose and mind. And "one" here still means just one.
[13] Interestingly, there are five instances where echad is used in the plural (echadim):Gen. 27:44, 29:20; Ezek. 37:17; and Dan. 11:20. Echadim is usually translated few, but one may be the best translation in Gen. 11:1 and Ezek. 37:17 (so that they may become one in your hand). In those passages, echadim is used with plural nouns, and perhaps here has the sense of a compound. All the more remarkable, then, that Deut. 6:4 - which has the plural form Elohim - has echad in its singular form. This may be yet another indicator that Deut. 6:4 quite strongly emphasizes the simple oneness of God.
We don't know what God is, except for the fact that He is one.
We know some things He is not, like physical.
So God is not build up of a body and a spirit, He is not a man, He is just Y-H-W-H.
Read here who the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71984
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
It's hard for me to see your future topic, because I cannot look into the future, I'm not a prophet, unfortunately.
But JC is not Y-H-W-H:
If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.
Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.
Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???
Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.
So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???
When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46
So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???
Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”
Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???
Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?
Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Well, first you have brought up a good point and i totally agree with you that God sends angels to his do his will, but notice the difference. In the same passage that you quoted on Sodom and Gomorrah, it says "I will come down.." not "WE will come down.." What you just said does not take away the fact that it says "Then God (elohim = gods) said 'Let US make man in OUR image.." Is he talking about the angels image or about his own image.
You said that God used angels to create the universe, but show one verse where angels are shown to be able to create. On the contrary, Job 38:6-7 says "6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" It does not say that they created. More importantly, Gen. 1:2 "2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." The Spirit (Ru-ach) of God was present and is the agent of creating. Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Who made man, was it the angels or was it the spirit of God? If you say angels, you are contradicting this verse.
We as Christians don't believe that God is three persons who are all equal, that is incorrect. We believe that God is made of Father, son, holy spirit working as one, each with their own characteristics.
Let me explain it further, the word "Image" comes from the sense of making an idol to represent a god in ancient near east. The God of the Hebrews has no physical form, unlike all other gods made of stone and wood. This was used to describe Adam being made in the invisible image of God. My guess is that it's plural because they were aware of three distinct persons. The gods of other nations were not ONE. They each had their own personality, their own powers, and their own goals. For example, there could be a god which made the waters, but he cannot control or make fire, the god of fire can make fire, but did not make earth, and so on. God of the Hebrews could do everything, but i think that he is described as plural because each god had a specific role in the ONE supreme God.
God the father - The creator of all things and that by which all things come from
The son - the firstborn heir to the things that God, the father has given him, he is originally not a man, he later manifested himself as a man.
The Spirit - the agent of creation, he is in charge of creating and anointing people for a specific purpose given by God
These all can be described as gods if you will, but when they are working together, they become ONE God, the supreme being of the universe. If you don't believe me, just look at the comparison in Gen. 2:23 "23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." The word one here is translated as "Echad", but based on the context, it does not literally mean one flesh, body or "Basar." It is speaking of the union between two separate beings working as one.
You said that God used angels to create the universe, but show one verse where angels are shown to be able to create. On the contrary, Job 38:6-7 says "6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" It does not say that they created. More importantly, Gen. 1:2 "2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." The Spirit (Ru-ach) of God was present and is the agent of creating. Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Who made man, was it the angels or was it the spirit of God? If you say angels, you are contradicting this verse.
We as Christians don't believe that God is three persons who are all equal, that is incorrect. We believe that God is made of Father, son, holy spirit working as one, each with their own characteristics.
Let me explain it further, the word "Image" comes from the sense of making an idol to represent a god in ancient near east. The God of the Hebrews has no physical form, unlike all other gods made of stone and wood. This was used to describe Adam being made in the invisible image of God. My guess is that it's plural because they were aware of three distinct persons. The gods of other nations were not ONE. They each had their own personality, their own powers, and their own goals. For example, there could be a god which made the waters, but he cannot control or make fire, the god of fire can make fire, but did not make earth, and so on. God of the Hebrews could do everything, but i think that he is described as plural because each god had a specific role in the ONE supreme God.
God the father - The creator of all things and that by which all things come from
The son - the firstborn heir to the things that God, the father has given him, he is originally not a man, he later manifested himself as a man.
The Spirit - the agent of creation, he is in charge of creating and anointing people for a specific purpose given by God
These all can be described as gods if you will, but when they are working together, they become ONE God, the supreme being of the universe. If you don't believe me, just look at the comparison in Gen. 2:23 "23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." The word one here is translated as "Echad", but based on the context, it does not literally mean one flesh, body or "Basar." It is speaking of the union between two separate beings working as one.
instead of all this surplus and superfluous stuff ad infinitum lets just keep it short and sweet and neat - the I AM that was before Abraham[Jn.8:58] is the same I AM of Moses and the burning bush[Ex.3:14] and is the I AM that came unto His own and they knew Him not[Jn.1:11] - btw the humanity in us and Jesus prays to the divinity in God - human father and son are both human,so also with divinity - wincam
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Let's keep this short and simple.
You have a divine "God the Father", and a divine "god the son", that means that you have TWO (2) gods.
The Bible teaches there is only ONE (1) God, and not two.
Therefore you are a polytheist and an idol worshiper.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
you misconstrue and misunderstand 'kinds' = in human kind we have many humans but in God/divinity kind we have three in one kind,all three equally God just as in humankind many humans but all equally human - 'the Father and I are one and the same God' - wincam
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
That means again, that according to you God is His own son, and at the same time His own father.
A totally ridiculous concept which is nowhere to be found in the Tanach, only in the idolatrous NT.
And "I and the father" are NOT one, because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.
I know that the Christians cannot count to two anymore when it comes to religion, however, the fact of the matter is and remains that 1 + 1 = 2, and NOT 1.
Really.
שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד
Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
absolutely - to Him every knee shall and must bow and every tongue shall and must confess that Jesus Christ as Y-H-W-H is King of Kings and Lord of Lords - even Satan and the devils know this but it seems not some humans and here we have the original rebellion of the angels 'we will not serve' an incarnate Y-H-W-H etc - wincam
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Here is why it is impossible that JC = Y-H-W-H:
The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.
People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel
So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.
But then you encounter the following problems:
If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.
Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.
Luke 22:41-42: “and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???
Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.
So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???
When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: “My God, my God, why did you forsake me?” Matthew 27:46
So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???
Collossians 3:1; “set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.”
Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???
Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?
Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.
By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.
And from that we learn that Christians who worship JC are idol worshipers.
For more information why JC was not God and not the messiah, look here: http://MountZion.notlong.com
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
Why did nobody ever dispute the above? No arguments?
Then accept the fact that JC was a false god.
There is no way around it.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
Elia
Well-known member
Bs'd
The whole Bible, both Tanach and NT, teach that there is only ONE God.
So worshipping a whole divine family is IDOLATRY!
Because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.
A God the Father and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.
And therefore Christianity is idolatry.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
The whole Bible, both Tanach and NT, teach that there is only ONE God.
So worshipping a whole divine family is IDOLATRY!
Because 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1.
A God the Father and a "god the son" is TWO (2) gods, and not one.
And therefore Christianity is idolatry.
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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