ONLY Y-H-W-H is God, besides Him there is no God

[freelight]

One Universal Reality

One Universal Reality

~*~*~

Let us reflect upon the fundamental, universal and ultimate reality that is infinite,.....and behold that IT alone is the One Infinite. Therefore that 'reality' is all-pervading, timeless, omnipresent, ever-availing, all-encompassing. If we call this 'original presence' by the term 'God'...then on an absolute level,....there is only 'this' that is 'absolute'. From the absolute view of what is pure, simple and indivisible,...there is only 'that' ('that' being 'God').

'God' is all there is. 'God' is all. 'God' is One. - we cannot begin or end anywhere apart from 'God' ...since 'God' is ever prior to and transcending any point of space or time. Such is the magnificence of 'omnipresence'. 'God' is within all dimensions and without dimension.

Truth is One.



pj

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Isaiah 9: 5
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

In the following verse we see the exact Hebrew words as found at Isaiah 9:6:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

So I will stand with the translation of Isaiah 9:6 which I previously quoted. Now to more on the same verse:

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Now to my original point which has not been answered, the fact that the Angel is called "the Angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

 

[Pierac]

In the following verse we see the exact Hebrew words as found at Isaiah 9:6:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

So I will stand with the translation of Isaiah 9:6 which I previously quoted. Now to more on the same verse:

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Now to my original point which has not been answered, the fact that the Angel is called "the Angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

Wow!!! :doh: Exactly what part of the Hebrew concept of Agency did you not understand? Read my post again! You are making my point for me!!!


Let's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament with this historic mindset. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, “who” is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? My answer once was typical of the vast majority in the Church. Of course it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that “’God’ called to him from the midst of the bush and ‘said’, ‘Moses, Moses!’” (v4).

Verse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, “’I am’ the ‘God’ of your father, ‘the God’ of Abraham, ‘the God’ of Isaac, and ‘the God’ of Jacob.’ Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at ‘God’.” Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke? But what do we make of verse 2 that prefaces this narrative by stating that “’the angel of the LORD’ appeared” to Moses from the midst of the brush? Many scholars have declared this angel to be God himself, even the pre-existing Christ. They make much of the definitive article and point out that this was a particular angel not just any angel.

This is a fancy bit of footwork that disregards the Hebrew text as we shall see. If we turn to the New Testament’s commentary on this incident, we will see how Hebrews understood their own Scriptures.

Let us now turn to answer our question: Who is it who appears to Moses and talks to him? The martyr Stephen was a man “filled with the Holy Spirit.” Let's listen to his commentary on the burning bush incident. He clearly states that it was “an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush” (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, “there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, ‘Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33).

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. (Like Moses did!!!) The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

You read your scriptures like an American tourist in Israel! Wearing spiritual knee high black socks your with bermuda shorts and white tennis shoes! :doh:


oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Exactly what part of the Hebrew concept of Agency did you not understand? Read my post again! You are making my point for me!!!

You talk about agency while ignoring the fact that the Angel is referred to as the "angel of His presence." According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

You want to talk about agency but you have not yet dealt with these facts which demonstrate that the idea of "agency" cannot possibly be the correct understanding. That is because the presence of God defines the identity of the Angel under discussion. that the Angel is God.

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. (Like Moses did!!!) The angel of the Lord says, “I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

There is nothing that even hints that the following people thought that they were merely giving homage to God's agent because they clearly believed that the Angel of the LORD is God Himself:

"Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, “Pray, let us detain you, and prepare a kid for you.” And the angel of the Lord said to Mano′ah, “If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the Lord.” (For Mano′ah did not know that he was the angel of the Lord.) And Mano′ah said to the angel of the Lord, What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?” And the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” So Mano′ah took the kid with the cereal offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord, to him who works wonders. And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar while Mano′ah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground. The angel of the Lord appeared no more to Mano′ah and to his wife. Then Mano′ah knew that he was the angel of the Lord. And Mano′ah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God" (Jud.13:15-22).​

It is clear that Mano′ah and to his wife were not just paying homage to the Angel because they thought He was merely a representative of God. Instead, they believed that the Angel of the LORD is God! Otherwise, they would have no fear of dying because they saw God.

You read your scriptures like an American tourist in Israel! Wearing spiritual knee high black socks your with bermuda shorts and white tennis shoes!

It is you who cannot understand the things of God which are revealed in the Bible. In your desperate attempt to try to prove that Israel's promised Messiah is not God you denied that the following verse is a correct translation:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God , The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

But when I showed you that the words "the Mighty God" is entirely consistent with what is said in another verse that is clearly speaking of the Mighty God you had nothing to say:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ) , the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God.

Your silence on this subject is speaks volumes!

 

[whoislikeGood]

Bs’d

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


The old testatment god is no god. Its a high tech hidden civilization that wants to keep us (humanity of the surface of the world) bound to earth. thats why the lards destroyed our towel of babel...when mankind developed technology and wanted to reach the stars (space exploration) they came down and destroyed humanity and planted demonic mind influences machines to divide us and make us to fight each other, all differences in religion, policitical ideologies, physical differences was artificially induced by the evil A holes to keep us trapped on earth......Jews, where is your promised land of flowing milk and honey? when will that BS lie you people believe to be a promise from God will come true? don't you know that true and real God is Good and Good is incapable of partiality where he will choose a group of people over all others....why is it written in your book (five books of Mosese) that do not trust a man with a crooked nose when that is the main characteristic of a Jew? Don't think I am anti Jew. I love the Jewish people...as matter of fact. to me there are only three basic races on this world. 1. the Good people 2. the in-between or so-so people. 3. the a-holes or the bad people. Yes I am racist because I favor the good people of all colors and creed over the A-hole people; I can tolerate the so-so but if I had a choice, I will stick with the good people...one of the true God's qualities are impartiality....all of your Torah, and other traditions that teaches that the Jews are the chosen people is the doctrine perpetrated by the devil and you are worshiping a devil disguised as God. If you want to reach the promised land; you must understand the deception and overcome the BS....


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”



And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.”

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.”

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.”



Eliyahu, light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

 

[JosephR]

HaShem Elohiem

 

[Elia]

You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:

Bs'd

The word translated with "angel" means "messenger", and is always translated like that, except when it speaks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

But God is not His own messenger, just like He is not His own son, and not His own father.

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for JC; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore JC is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

 

[Elia]

God is not the result of counted things.

Try again...

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

Deut 6:4


"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."
Mark 12

 

[Caino]

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

Deut 6:4


"One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions."
Mark 12

One in divine unity, plural in personified manifestation.​

 

[Elia]

One in divine unity, plural in personified manifestation.​

Bs'd

When I say 'God is one', I bring many Biblical texts.

When you say God is a unity, you come up with exactly zero Biblical texts.

 

[Caino]

Bs'd

When I say 'God is one', I bring many Biblical texts.

When you say God is a unity, you come up with exactly zero Biblical texts.

Originally God was thought of as plural "Elohim" but in the battle between Yahweh and the other inferior God concepts in the regeon, the Israelites tended to singularize their deity concept into an inflexible oneness.


The plural deity concepts are in the scripture but you don't have an open mind, your racial pride prevents you from having an honest conversation with the Gentiles that you look down upon from your desolate perch.

An open minded person can read the Bible from the beginning and see right off the bat the original authors portray God talking in the plural to his divine counterparts:


* "In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

* "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness;

* "The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'"

* "Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

* "'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!'"


But because of pride the Jewish people have gone back through the Bible and reworked their interpretation in order to reject Jesus and justify their guilt for rejecting him in a disgraceful, unjust trial.



"Personality in Deity demands that such Deity exist in relation to other and equal personal Deity."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The word translated with "angel" means "messenger", and is always translated like that, except when it speaks about a messenger of God, then it is translated as "angel".

But God is not His own messenger, just like He is not His own son, and not His own father.

You continue tojust IGNORE the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel of His presence. According to the context the pronoun "His" in the phrase "Angel of His presence" can only be referring back to the LORD:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

You ignore the fact that the presence of God defines the identity of the Angel under discussion--that the Angel is God.

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

You obviously have no knowledge of the history of Israel if you think that the following happened during the days of Isaiah:

"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore" (Isa.9:7).​

I am afraid that in your zeal to defend your view on this matter you have lost all touch with reality.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to JC, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that JC didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

Your argument is faulty because the Scriptures reveal that the earthly kingdom will not even be set up until the Messiah defends the children of Israel when all the nations come upon Jerusalem:

" I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem" (Zech.14:2-4).​

Here we read that the feet of J-H-W-H will stand on the mount of Olives and fight against all of the nations which come against Jerusalem. That fits perfectly that it will be the Lord Jesus, who is the Son of Man, who is in view here.

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

I will remain convinced that the correct translation is "Mighty God," especially when we see that is not the only instance where the same Hebrew word are referring to God:

"Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), the LORD of hosts, is his name" (Jer.32:18).​

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el ), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

The same exact Hebrew words are used in both verses and there can be absolutely no doubt that Jeremiah 32:18 is speaking about God and nothing else but God. And we can see another example of the same exact thing here:

"The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the Mighty (gibbowr) God ('el )" (Isa.10:21).​

 

[Pierac]

You conveniently do not address the fact that the Angel is referred to as the Angel oh His presence, obviously referring to God's presence:

In this passage from the OT we see two Persons of the Godhead, and one is called the “Angel of His presence”:

“I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them” (Isa.63:7-9).​

That is what the Lord was referring to when He said the following to Moses:

“And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest” (Ex.33:14).​

The word "presence" means the condition of being present so God was present in the Angel of His presence. And that matches perfectly the following passage which is speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

We can also see that the one of the names of the Angel of the Lord is "wonderful":

"And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" (Jud.13:18).​

Again, that matches what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (Isa.9:6).​

:think::think::think:

What the ... heck are you talking about?

Are you now claiming God to be a Angel ? Because that's what it looks like! ???

Your a Spiritual Child!!! :doh:


Isaiah 9: 5


For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

There, you see, the Messiah is supposed to be God. Wrong! If we take a closer look at this verse you will see that it does not mean that at all. The phrase in question is Mighty God, and the proper understanding of Everlasting Father is a must. First, Mighty God.

Not all Bibles use the translation of Mighty for the Hebrew word gibbor. The Jewish translators of the Septaugint render it in the following manner, "The angel of great council." Angel meaning messenger. But we will address the ones that do just for arguments sake. First of all, we will take a close look at the Hebrew word that is translated as Mighty. Translators have used Mighty for theological reasons, (so they can tie it in to other verses that God is referred to as mighty, and thus claim that the Messiah is supposed to be God). Let’s see what a Hebrew dictionary and a Hebrew lexicon tells us about this word.

The Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary defines this word as:
Gibbor – by impl. warrior, tyrant:- champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), valiant man. Mighty is the eighth definition of this word.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says of this word gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9: 5:

Isaiah 9:5 - ref. Messiah, attribute of God especially as fighting for his people. This explanation doesn’t even mention Mighty.

According to these sources, gibbor as it is used in Isaiah 9:5 along with God means, a warrior king with the attributes of God. This is exactly who the Messiah is supposed to be. This definition agrees with the rest of the chapter in which Isaiah talks about how the Messiah will reign on David’s throne, and how he will rule with justice and righteousness forever because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. Isaiah does not believe that the Messiah is supposed to be God, he distinguishes between them. He says how the Messiah will accomplish everything because of the zeal of the LORD Almighty. We can also compare this chapter to Isaiah 11 in which he is again speaking of the Messiah. In Isaiah 11: 1-3 he says how the Messiah will be from the root of Jesse, how the Spirit of the LORD will rest on him, and how he will delight in the fear of the LORD. Now, are we supposed to believe that the LORD will delight in the fear of Himself? Definitely not. Isaiah prophesying about the Messiah says:

Isaiah 49:5: "And I am made glorious in the sight of the LORD, and MY GOD is my strength."

From Isaiah 49:5 and 11:1-3 we can see that Isaiah understands the future Messiah to be a man on whom God's spirit will rest (which is the meaning of the word "Christ") who will delight in the fear of his God, the LORD. Isaiah does not consider the Messiah to be God in Isaiah 11:1-3 nor in Isaiah 49:5, and neither does he believe that in Isaiah 9: 5.

The definition of the Messiah as a warrior king with the attributes of God, is seen in Revelation 19: 11 where it reads:

"Then I saw heaven standing open and there was before me a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war."

Now we will look at some other translations to see how they have interpreted this verse.

The New English Bible says, "In battle God-like."

The New American Bible (which is a Catholic Bible, they invented the trinity) says, "God- Hero." It translates this verse in the following manner and has a note on this verse which is very interesting and enlightening. First the translation. It states: "They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace."
Footnote:
"Wonder- Counselor: remarkable for his wisdom and prudence. God-Hero: a warrior and defender of his people, like God himself.
Father-forever: ever devoted to his people. Prince of peace: his reign will be characterized by peace."

This exegesis is in complete agreement with the definitions and Bible passage that we have just examined. Remember, this is the Catholic Church’s interpretation, I am sure that they would love to be able to say that according to this passage the Messiah is supposed to be God, but even they don’t.

For a better understanding of the term Father-Forever or Everlasting Father, (depending on your translation) one must understand that kings were considered to be fathers of their people. The Messiah is the King of Israel. I agree with the New American Bible’s explanation of Father- Forever in this verse.

We can also substantiate this definition by looking at another verse of the same writer in Isaiah 22: 20- 21:

"In that day I will summon my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."

Isaiah obviously does not mean that Eliakim is God the Father. In Isaiah 9:5 he means that the Messiah as king of the new Israel (the kingdom of God) will be like a father to his people forever.

This matches what I found using e-sword's net Bible...

Like I said earlier, we need to look at the scripture in question. What is the Book or Chapter about? What are the verses before and after saying?

Just a note. The net people believe in the trinity yet look how they handle this verse. Note the red numbers for reference to the comments. They did a good job of trying to be non-bias here.


Net Bible Isa 9:6 For a child has been15 born to us, son has been given to us. He shoulders Responsibility and is called:16 Extraordinary Strategist,17 Mighty God,18 Everlasting Father,19 Prince of Peace.20


17 Since Isa_11:2 points out that this king will receive the spirit of the Lord, which will enable him to counsel, it is possible to argue that the king's counsel is "extraordinary" because it finds its source in the divine spirit. (Anointed) Thus this title does not necessarily suggest that the ruler is deity

18 tn âÌÄáÌåÉø (gibbor) is probably an attributive adjective ("mighty God"), though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Scholars have interpreted this title is two ways. A number of them have argued that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see J. H. Hayes and S. A. Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). They contend that this sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. They would suggest that having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Psa_45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth.

19 tn This title must not be taken in an anachronistic Trinitarian sense. (To do so would be theologically problematic, for the "Son" is the messianic king and is distinct in his person from God the "Father.") Rather, in its original context the title pictures the king as the protector of his people. For a similar use of "father" see Isa_22:21 and Job_29:16. This figurative, idiomatic use of "father" is not limited to the Bible. In a Phoenician inscription (ca. 850-800 B.C.) the ruler Kilamuwa declares: "To some I was a father, to others I was a mother." In another inscription (ca. 800 B.C.) the ruler Azitawadda boasts that the god Baal made him "a father and a mother" to his people. (See ANET 499-500.) The use of "everlasting" might suggest the deity of the king (as the one who has total control over eternity), but Isaiah and his audience may have understood the term as royal hyperbole emphasizing the king's long reign or enduring dynasty (for examples of such hyperbolic language used of the Davidic king, see 1Ki_1:31; Psa_21:4-6; Psa_61:6-7; Psa_72:5; Psa_72:17). The New Testament indicates that the hyperbolic language (as in the case of the title "Mighty God") is literally realized in the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy, for Jesus will rule eternally.

20 tn This title pictures the king as one who establishes a safe socio-economic environment for his people. It hardly depicts him as a meek individual, for he establishes peace through military strength (as the preceding context and the first two royal titles indicate). His people experience safety and prosperity because their invincible king destroys their enemies. See Psalms 72 and 144 for parallels to these theme.


Also important to note are the words in the verse. You will note most of the translations read… “will be called” or “shall be called” This is more of a concept of agency than actually being. There is a big difference between being call something, as in(agency) and actually being. No translations ever read “He Is. ”

This verse is actually a great example of how a western mind can read a verse literally and come away with a completely wrong impression. The Hebraic back ground is needed to fully understand this verse as it was intended to be understood!


oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Elia]

Isaiah 9 does not speak about THE messiah

Isaiah 9 does not speak about THE messiah

Bs'd

Isaiah 9:2-7 "2 The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Mid'ian. 5 For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."
Please take notice of the fact that Isaiah is talking in the past tense: "The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined.|

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder, and his name was called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

These are things which had happened already in the days of Isaiah.

If, despite these facts, you still want to apply these verses to the Christian messiah, than read verse 5, 6, and 7, and see that he didn't do any of those things. He never ruled on the throne of David, he never had any government on his shoulders, and there never was endless peace over his kingdom.

The same holds true for the verses 6 and 7: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this."

All of this doesn't hold true for Christian messiah; he never had any government on his shoulder. And also here is spoken in the past tense: "A child is born, a son is given. But most translations give it in the future tense. For instance the RSV, NIV, NAS, ESV, KJV, NIRV, the all say; "His name will be called ....", future tense. However, in the Hebrew text this too is past tense: "His name was called ...." The Hebrew expression here is "wayikra". That is the first word in the book of Leviticus. And all the previously mentioned translations there say: "And the Lord called Mozes ..." Past tense. Exactly the same the word. Isn't that weird? Exactly the same word is used in Genesis 5:1; "And God called the light 'day'" Called. Past tense. Nobody argues with that one. But why then, in Isaiah 9, is it suddenly changed to future tense? The answer is simple: The past tense doesn't fit with the Christian theology, and therefore the Bible translations are corrupted and twisted to fit the Christian religion. Just like that. There is only one solution for this problem: Take a course in Biblical Hebrew. It is more easy then it looks. Then your eyes will be opened and the Christian deception will stare you in the face. And yes, I do sympathize with the poor misguided Christians whom are being led astray by their clergy by means of twisted and corrupted Bible translations. That's the reason why I fulfill my duty of being a light unto the nations and uncovering the Christian deception.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end" "There will be no end", future tense. And this too is WRONG. It is in the Hebrew present tense. I found only one translation which is correct here, and that is Young's Literal Translation.

Why all this stress on the tenses? Isaiah spoke about a king who was living in his days, and therefore Christ is out. The king that Isaiah speaks about is Hezekiah, the son of Achaz who got from Isaiah the sign about the young woman (no, not the virgin) who was pregnant and gave birth to the son Immanuel.
The Talmud explains that under the rule of the God fearing Hezekiah the Jewish kingdom rose to great heights, and that's why he was entitled to those impressive titles.


Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.


Apart from that, the Hebrew words "El gibor", in Christian Bibles translated with "Mighty God", can have a different meaning. "El" can mean "God", but it can also mean "judge", "leader", or "mighty man". In Exodus 4:16 God says to Moses that he will be of an elohiem for his brother Aharon. ("elohim" is the longer form of the word "el") This doesn't mean that Moses was a God for Aharon and Aharon started to worship his brother, it meant that Moses would be the leader of Aharon.
In Exodus 21:1-6 is spoken about a slave who after the normal period of servitude ended, doesn't want to leave his master. In that case the owner has to take him to court, where the slave will make a statement that he doesn't want to leave his master, and that he will serve his master until his death. The Hebrew text there says that his master must take him to the "elohim". There the NAS, ASV, ESV, NRSV, RSV, YLT, they all say that his master must take him "to God". However, his master doesn't take him for a ride to heaven, but takes him to the courthouse. Therefore the NIV, KJV, TNIV, and the NIRV, they all say that the master must take him to "the judges".

Even so in Isaiah 9 the word "El" does not necessarily mean "God". Therefore the text in Isaiah 9 is in no way a proof that the child spoken about was God.

 

[Elia]

Originally God was thought of as plural "Elohim" but in the battle between Yahweh and the other inferior God concepts in the regeon, the Israelites tended to singularize their deity concept into an inflexible oneness.


The plural deity concepts are in the scripture but you don't have an open mind, your racial pride prevents you from having an honest conversation with the Gentiles that you look down upon from your desolate perch.

An open minded person can read the Bible from the beginning and see right off the bat the original authors portray God talking in the plural to his divine counterparts:


* "In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1

* "And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness;

* "The LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of US, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'"

* "Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
setstats


BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

But because of pride the Jewish people have gone back through the Bible and reworked their interpretation in order to reject Jesus and justify their guilt for rejecting him in a disgraceful, unjust trial.

He is rejected because he did not fulfill the messianic prophecies, and therefore he was not the messiah.

And his claim that he was God and needs to be honoured as God, leads the multitudes into idolatry.

There is only ONE God who is one, and that is not Christ, but Y-H-W-H.

 

[Apple7]

Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!


Lev 17.5 - 7

The reason which may bring the sons of Israel their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field may bring to Yahweh at the doorway of the meeting tent to the priest and sacrifice sacrifices of peace to Yahweh. The priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of Yahweh at the doorway of the tent of the meeting and offer the fat soothing aroma to Yahweh. And they shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the devils which they play after; this shall be a permanent statute likewise throughout their generations.


Judges 10.6

Again the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Yahweh and worshiped the Baals and the Ashtaroth and the gods of Aram and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines and forsook Yahweh and did not worship Him.



For thousands upon thousands of years the Jews worshipped an untold number of gods. Given this horrible, rock-bottom track record, how in the world can a modern-day Jew proclaim to be worshipping the creator God of the Universe, as He intended, with any certainty at all?

Clearly, there would have been no need for the Jews to feel the need to fabricate multiple gods, unless they had already been exposed to a uni-plural Creator of which they could not comprehend even to this very day.

Yahweh has always revealed Himself as Triune. Many misled early Jews saw this revelation and ran with it…making a multiplicity of separate gods…not being cognizant that the God revealed in their scriptures invokes plurality in one God.

The NT records that many Jews immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh. How then would this be possible – unless they had a very good understanding of the OT scriptures and knew that Yahweh had already manifested Himself in the flesh to the prophets?

Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.

 

[wordsponge]

Y-H-W-H had a secret
that he revealed ONLY to those who respected him;
like finally the chosen Israelite Christians,
whom the Highest chose out and gave to him, (Y-H-W-H his Son),
from the nation of Israel as inheritance, and cast away the rest.

Pss.25
[14] The secret of the LORD (Y-H-W-H) is with them who fear (RESPECT) him;
and he will reveal to them his covenant.

 

[Pierac]

:think:

Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!


Lev 17.5 - 7

The reason which may bring the sons of Israel their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field may bring to Yahweh at the doorway of the meeting tent to the priest and sacrifice sacrifices of peace to Yahweh. The priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of Yahweh at the doorway of the tent of the meeting and offer the fat soothing aroma to Yahweh. And they shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the devils which they play after; this shall be a permanent statute likewise throughout their generations.


Judges 10.6

Again the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Yahweh and worshiped the Baals and the Ashtaroth and the gods of Aram and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines and forsook Yahweh and did not worship Him.



For thousands upon thousands of years the Jews worshipped an untold number of gods. Given this horrible, rock-bottom track record, how in the world can a modern-day Jew proclaim to be worshipping the creator God of the Universe, as He intended, with any certainty at all?

Clearly, there would have been no need for the Jews to feel the need to fabricate multiple gods, unless they had already been exposed to a uni-plural Creator of which they could not comprehend even to this very day.

Yahweh has always revealed Himself as Triune. Many misled early Jews saw this revelation and ran with it…making a multiplicity of separate gods…not being cognizant that the God revealed in their scriptures invokes plurality in one God.

The NT records that many Jews immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh. How then would this be possible – unless they had a very good understanding of the OT scriptures and knew that Yahweh had already manifested Himself in the flesh to the prophets?

Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.

Please show us "The NT records" in your scriptures? Because they are not in mine... The question is... are you reading into your text when you should be reading out of your text?

Post your NT records and I will but in in biblical context! Context Is King... You Trinitarians should try using it! :readthis:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

 

[Apple7]

No problemo...

No problemo...

:think:

Please show us "The NT records" in your scriptures? Because they are not in mine... The question is... are you reading into your text when you should be reading out of your text?

Post your NT records and I will but in in biblical context! Context Is King... You Trinitarians should try using it! :readthis:

oly::sherlock:
Paul

The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit


Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

 

[keypurr]

The NT, just like the OT, is clear that we need to worship God as He has revealed Himself – which is Triune.

Paul clearly distanced himself from his unbelieving Jewish brethren by his following belief declaration:


But I confess this to you that according to the Way, which they say is a sect, so I worship the ancestral God believing all things according to that having been written in the Law and the Prophets, having hope toward God, which these themselves also admit, of a resurrection being about to be of the dead, both of just and unjust ones. (Acts 24.14)

Clearly, Paul builds upon the previous Hebrew prophets and is now able to worship God properly ‘according to The Way’ and according to that which had previously been written in the Torah and the prophets.

Obviously, Paul is able to see what his Jewish brethren have missed. Jews have been in denial of proper worship of God – and ‘The Way’ has laid the foundation for proper worship to God.

Proper worship of God:

But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him. God is spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.(John 4.23 - 24)


This proper worship is as a Triune entity:

• Father
• Son (Truth)
• Spirit


Further, the Book of Revelation shows us clearly the deity interchangeability between Father, Son and Spirit and amply demonstrates that each receives worship as the one God.

Show us that the proper worship is as a Triune entity.

You will never know truth Apple7. Pops has told you that before.