Once saved NOT necessarily always saved.

[heir]

In Jas 5 the believer is in the process of falling away, in Heb 6 the person HAS fallen away completely.

There comes a tipping point.

You know the answer as to how that happens as you read and believe that they must endure to the end and you're right, but Paul never says that in regarding our salvation. Their salvation is faith plus works. Our salvation is grace through faith, not of works. The Bible says a lot of different things.

Just look at all the things Israel had/will have to do

Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV). They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (which is at what many refer to as the second coming of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV).

That is not the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ that is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). To be saved today is to trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) which is where the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:16-17 KJV). Those who have trusted the Lord today having believed the gospel of Christ "are saved" presently (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). We get saved not by works of righteousness which we have done (Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). We are baptized BY one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV). We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV).

 

[iouae]

We don't know the extent of their experiences.

Why does a Billy Graham continue in the faith while a Charles Templeton does not?

For the same reason that marriages last or fail.

Some folks are committed to their relationship, and tend to it, and some don't.

One slight problem with this analogy is that God is 100% committed to the covenant (marriages maybe not so one partner). And because God is 100% committed to the relationship/covenant, some have mistaken this to mean they cannot fall away. God is committed 100% but it requires us to be too.

 

[heir]

For the same reason that marriages last or fail.

Some folks are committed to their relationship, and tend to it, and some don't.

One slight problem with this analogy is that God is 100% committed to the covenant (marriages maybe not so one partner). And because God is 100% committed to the relationship/covenant, some have mistaken this to mean they cannot fall away. God is committed 100% but it requires us to be too.

We may get to the point where we believe not and yet:


2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Eternal security!

 

[beloved57]

It's waiting on an answer.
This question was posed to aeiou sometomes y.
I already answered your question.

You told a lie !

 

[iouae]

We may get to the point where we believe not and yet:


2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Eternal security!

2 Tim 2:12
if we deny him, he also will deny us: NO eternal security in the preceding verse...

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
... meaning God is ALWAYS faithful and 100% committed to a covenant.

But like I said in a prior post, this confuses folks into believing this character trait of God, viz. faithfulness GUARANTEES execution on the contract/covenant.

The covenant, both Old and New is "I will be their God, and they will be my people". If we reject God, we make the covenant null since we are no longer "His people", just as ancient Israel did.

"he cannot deny himself" refers to His character being constant no matter our wavering opinion of it.

 

[False Prophet]

Speculations and controversial questions do not replace the Word of God. Heb 6
Some people cannot be brought back again to a changed life. They were once in God's light, and enjoyed heaven's gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They found out how good God's word is, and they received the powers of his new world. 6 But they fell away from Christ. It is impossible to bring them back to a changed life again, because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are shaming him in front of others.
Mark that they were once in God's light. Those who walk in the light do not walk in darkness. Mark verse 6 they fell away from Christ. It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, having received the heavenly gift, having been partakers of the Holy Ghost, and having tasted the good Word of God and the blessings of the world to come; if they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance.
Now if we are going to favor the doctrines and traditions of men rather than believe the Word of God, then we have a serious problem. If we sin willfully, after that we have come to the knowledge of the truth; there no longer remains a sacrifice left for sin. We shall be like those who are ever gaining knowledge, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
9 The Man of Evil will come by the power of Satan. He will have great power, and he will do many different false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 He will use every kind of evil to trick those who are lost. They will die, because they refused to love the truth. (If they loved the truth, they would be saved.) 11 For this reason God sends them something powerful that leads them away from the truth so they will believe a lie.
They reject the knowledge of the truth so as to be saved, so God sends over them a deluding influence so that they will believe a lie.

 

[jamie]

Does God differentiate between Jew and Gentile?

For He Himself (Jesus) is our peace, who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of separation...
(Ephesians 2:14 NKJV)
​

Some people attempt to override Jesus and restore that wall of separation. For example, James was written to Jewish Christians, i.e to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, so some claim James does not apply to Gentle Christians yet the NT was written by Jewish Christians.

:deadhorse:

 

[serpentdove]

[Why does a Billy Graham continue in the faith while a Charles Templeton does not?] "For the same reason that marriages last or fail."

Marriage should point one to God. Is. 54:5, Eph. 5:23–32, Ac 17:27

"Some folks are committed to their relationship, and tend to it, and some don't."

“The strength of a family, like the strength of an army, is in its loyalty to each other.” ~ Mario Puzo Josh. 22:9–20

"One slight problem with this analogy is that God is 100% committed to the covenant (marriages maybe not so one partner)."

He didn't work in an escape clause? :freak: Gen. 24:58, 60, Mt 19:6, Rom. 7:2, 3, God does not leave covenant relationships. Husbands do. Wives do. God does not (Mt 19:6, 1 Co 7:15, Heb 13:4).

"And because God is 100% committed to the relationship/covenant, some have mistaken this to mean they cannot fall away. God is committed 100% but it requires us to be too."

"He'll have all of you or he'll have none of you." ~ Adrian Rogers Deut 30:19, 1 Tim. 4:1–3, Jer. 16:2

 

[heir]

You told a lie !

good grief. I did not :troll:

 

[serpentdove]

“Monsters are real, and ghosts are real too. They live inside us, and sometimes, they win.” ~ Stephen King Mark 7:21, 22

 

[heir]

2 Tim 2:12
if we deny him, he also will deny us: NO eternal security in the preceding verse...

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
... meaning God is ALWAYS faithful and 100% committed to a covenant.

But like I said in a prior post, this confuses folks into believing this character trait of God, viz. faithfulness GUARANTEES execution on the contract/covenant.

The covenant, both Old and New is "I will be their God, and they will be my people". If we reject God, we make the covenant null since we are no longer "His people", just as ancient Israel did.

"he cannot deny himself" refers to His character being constant no matter our wavering opinion of it.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

This is about suffering, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him” as in:

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Philippians 1:28 And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Philippians 1:30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

If we deny Him the suffering, He also will deny us the reign!

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Knowing our position in Christ found in passages throughout Romans through Philemon including our being dead with Him and that we shall live with Him when He appears as He is our life (Colossians 3:1-4 KJV), we believers read 2 Timothy 2:13 KJV as an “even if”! Even if we believe not, we are identified in and with Him (Colossians 2:10-13 KJV). To deny us, would be to deny Himself and He cannot deny Himself as He abideth faithful!

 

[heir]

Does God differentiate between Jew and Gentile?

For He Himself (Jesus) is our peace, who has made both one and has broken down the middle wall of separation...
(Ephesians 2:14 NKJV)
​

Some people attempt to override Jesus and restore that wall of separation. For example, James was written to Jewish Christians, i.e to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, so some claim James does not apply to Gentle Christians yet the NT was written by Jewish Christians.

:deadhorse:

The wall of partition (Ephesians 2:14:15 KJV) was between those who were in the covenants of promise and strangers from the covenants of promise!

It is the fellowship of the mystery~ the "both" made "one", the "twain" made "one new man"!

1.The Jews and Greeks, those gathered during Paul's Acts ministry, those in the commonwealth of Israel. They had a hope

...And

2. The "you Gentiles",in time past aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world

 

[jamie]

And don't forget Acts 14:22 where Paul said, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

 

[jamie]

The wall of partition (Ephesians 2:14:15 KJV) was between those who were in the covenants of promise and strangers from the covenants of promise!

Would that be Jews and Gentiles?

 

[heir]

And don't forget Acts 14:22 where Paul said, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

so?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

[heir]

Would that be Jews and Gentiles?

no. there were Gentiles in both groups

 

[iouae]

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

This is about suffering, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him” as in:
.... To deny us, would be to deny Himself and He cannot deny Himself as He abideth faithful!

Your last sentence contradicts 2 Tim 2:12.

And yes, we are expected to suffer for Christ if need be.
If we as Christians receive the mark of the Beast we may lose eternal life.

In the future folks will have to choose between the short term benefit of accepting the mark of the Beast, and the long term benefit of receiving eternal life by refusing that mark.

Rev 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[patrick jane]

Your last sentence contradicts 2 Tim 2:12.

And yes, we are expected to suffer for Christ if need be.
If we as Christians receive the mark of the Beast we may lose eternal life.

In the future folks will have to choose between the short term benefit of accepting the mark of the Beast, and the long term benefit of receiving eternal life by refusing that mark.

Rev 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So you fast forward to the mark of the beast ? You already have it, it's your smart phone

 

[beloved57]

good grief. I did not :troll:

Yes you did ! You made a statement that you dont even believe, in fact you deny it ! Here it is, you said:

Salvation is not based upon anything that we do or don't do.

Ok, fine, then I asked:

Then why dont you believe everyone Christ died for is saved by that Death alone ? Does something else need to be done by the person ?

 

[heir]

Yes you did ! You made a statement that you dont even believe, in fact you deny it ! Here it is, you said:




Ok, fine, then I asked:

Then why dont you believe everyone Christ died for is saved by that Death alone ? Does something else need to be done by the person ?

Nothing needs to be done. Salvation is not in DOING, but BELIEVING!