On the omniscience of God

Bladerunner

Active member
Interesting. Abraham certainly had free will, but did God know? I believe He did because He can look back in time as it’s happening. I think we’re seeing through a glass darkly.

Isaiah 48:3-7
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; 5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. 6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. 7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
While GOD is in complete control of everything on earth and the three heavens, Man still has free will....In the OT it was the Works of man (his Free Will ) that brought him salvation from God Above. However, in the dispensation of the Church, Salvation comes through the grace of Jesus Christ and not any of the works of man.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
While GOD is in complete control of everything on earth and the three heavens, Man still has free will....In the OT it was the Works of man (his Free Will ) that brought him salvation from God Above. However, in the dispensation of the Church, Salvation comes through the grace of Jesus Christ and not any of the works of man.
The typical teachings surrounding the "sovereignty" of God go well beyond what the bible can support. Indeed, the very word "sovereignty" has an extended meaning when used in most Christian circles that the word itself doesn't actually support.

The word sovereign simply means "highest authority" and does not convey or imply anything about meticulous control over every event that occurs under that authority. It is only within the Christian vernacular that the term takes on a meaning related to control and as I just said a moment ago, the idea that God controls everything that happens is not biblical. There's all kinds of examples of times when God fails to get what He wants and where things happen in opposition to His will.

The material is too extensive to post it all but just to give one super clear example where God Himself states from His own mouth that in spite of His best efforts, He did not get what He expected and desired...

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​
My Well-beloved has a vineyard​
On a very fruitful hill.​
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​
And planted it with the choicest vine.​
He built a tower in its midst,​
And also made a winepress in it;​
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​
6 I will lay it waste;​
It shall not be pruned or dug,​
But there shall come up briers and thorns.​
I will also command the clouds​
That they rain no rain on it.”​
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
And just for good measure, I'll post a second example where again, God Himself states that things happen that never even entered His mind, much less that He was in control of....

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),​
So, while God is indeed the highest authority in all of existence, the doctrine of God's "Sovereignty", as normally taught by most Christian churches and says that there isn't a single rouge molecule in all of existence, is a gross overstatement, as are all of the omni-doctrines upon which the "sovereignty" doctrine is primarily based.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
While GOD is in complete control of everything on earth and the three heavens, Man still has free will....In the OT it was the Works of man (his Free Will ) that brought him salvation from God Above. However, in the dispensation of the Church, Salvation comes through the grace of Jesus Christ and not any of the works of man.
I was referring to the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, AND He declares it just to prove He is God and knows all things. Dwelling outside of time certainly has its advantages. I wouldn’t know, because I am stuck here watching time march on.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I was referring to the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, AND He declares it just to prove He is God and knows all things. Dwelling outside of time certainly has its advantages. I wouldn’t know, because I am stuck here watching time march on.
He DOES NOT know the end from the beginning in the way you mean it here and your inclusion of the fact that He declares it from the beginning doesn't excuse you from taking the passage out of it context and using it to teach something that it flat out does not teach. Further, nowhere in scripture is God ever talked about as existing outside of time, which is a good thing because such a contradictory concept would falsify the bible.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​
My Well-beloved has a vineyard​
On a very fruitful hill.​
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​
And planted it with the choicest vine.​
He built a tower in its midst,​
And also made a winepress in it;​
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​
6 I will lay it waste;​
It shall not be pruned or dug,​
But there shall come up briers and thorns.​
I will also command the clouds​
That they rain no rain on it.”​
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

So much for knowing the end from the beginning like you would if you existed outside of time. Since when did you become so Calvinistic?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
He DOES NOT know the end from the beginning in the way you mean it here and your inclusion of the fact that He declares it from the beginning doesn't excuse you from taking the passage out of it context and using it to teach something that it flat out does not teach. Further, nowhere in scripture is God ever talked about as existing outside of time, which is a good thing because such a contradictory concept would falsify the bible.

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​
My Well-beloved has a vineyard​
On a very fruitful hill.​
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​
And planted it with the choicest vine.​
He built a tower in its midst,​
And also made a winepress in it;​
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​
6 I will lay it waste;​
It shall not be pruned or dug,​
But there shall come up briers and thorns.​
I will also command the clouds​
That they rain no rain on it.”​
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.

So much for knowing the end from the beginning like you would if you existed outside of time. Since when did you become so Calvinistic?
I just heard the expression and it popped into my head when I try to figure out how it is that God can speak the world into existence and how, without the sun telling us time, how is it measured before the creation. Personally, I believe we all see through a glass darkly. So this particular subject is outside my imagination skills.

To be honest, though, I’m not sure that scripture proves that God doesn’t know the end from the beginning. In fact, He has to know in order to inform the prophets years and even centuries what would come to pass. Prophecy, itself, pretty much makes it clear.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
The typical teachings surrounding the "sovereignty" of God go well beyond what the bible can support. Indeed, the very word "sovereignty" has an extended meaning when used in most Christian circles that the word itself doesn't actually support.

The word sovereign simply means "highest authority" and does not convey or imply anything about meticulous control over every event that occurs under that authority. It is only within the Christian vernacular that the term takes on a meaning related to control and as I just said a moment ago, the idea that God controls everything that happens is not biblical. There's all kinds of examples of times when God fails to get what He wants and where things happen in opposition to His will.
I have heard that before "God fails to get what He wants". I believe that God is Sovereign over ALL things....He starts out in the Bible with two plans that are so intricate, it would take a lifetime to pull them out of the very WORDs He has spoken. Yet, They are there

Do you have Children?...if so you has sovereignty over just about every part of their lives and yet they still had free will, sinned(did not obey) you rules of the house.Yet somehow,everything they did was within you control up unto a certain age. Did your control include taking them by the hand on everything or maybe, just maybe allow them to exercise their free will...If they are going in the right direction, they do not need your hands on" control.....Of course, this exercise in the imagination, is far from what God has control over. Your life...If God walks away, we would die for He controls every breathe, every beat of our hearts. He makes us in the womb and gives us our first breathe at birth and stops all bodily functions at death. Yes, He could have stopped King David from killing Bathsheba's husband, Uriah by sending him to the front lines. Yet, He did not and because of it, Joseph, the adopted father of Jesus and husband of Jesus' mother, Mary would not have been. If all one does is look under the cover and never on the pages of His word, it is easy to say He is not in total control. I could go on but it is obvious we are at odds with each other here...That is fine for everyone (including you and myself) has an opinion. I believe it is up to GOD to bring everyone that He has elected to believe in every word of His Word.

The material is too extensive to post it all but just to give one super clear example where God Himself states from His own mouth that in spite of His best efforts, He did not get want He expected and desired...

Isaiah 5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​
My Well-beloved has a vineyard​
On a very fruitful hill.​
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​
And planted it with the choicest vine.​
He built a tower in its midst,​
And also made a winepress in it;​
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​
6 I will lay it waste;​
It shall not be pruned or dug,​
But there shall come up briers and thorns.​
I will also command the clouds​
That they rain no rain on it.”​
7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
A parable..Here GOD is speaking to Israel, about their beloved Grapevines...Oh how the Jews, love a grapevine. Yet, God is speaking of Mankind in this grapevine and He ask the leaders of the Jews, simply what could have been done for better results....good grapes vs wild grapes. Did God not know the answer,,,,,,Sure He knew the answer but unless He wanted to make mankind a robot and remove man's free will, it was man's fault that the wild grapes appeared. You see, while He could do the Robot and no Free Will route and force everyone to love Him. No, He lets mankind make his own mistakes which is why mankind has to pay the penalty for this freedom.. Much like a child, if one has not taught the child everything they need to know about good and bad, moral and immoral by the time they reach 15-16, it is too late to redo any teachings at a later date. Only God can bring them around.
And just for good measure, I'll post a second example where again, God Himself states that things happen that never even entered His mind, much less that He was in control of....

Jeremiah 19:5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),​
So, while God is indeed the highest authority in all of existence, the doctrine of God's "Sovereignty", as normally taught by most Christian churches and says that there isn't a single rouge molecule in all of existence, is a gross overstatement, as are all of the omni-doctrines upon which the "sovereignty" doctrine is primarily based.
to make it short and sweet, "for burnt offerings .........which I did not command or speak," This was something new. God had not commanded this type of sacrifice (when--to Israel) that any of the sacrifices for Israel to be 'Human sacrifices' in nature. and while commanding these sacrifices for Israel, using humans for ritual sacrifices had never come into His mind,,nor would they for He could /would not step past sinless animal sacrifice (I.e. Moses and Son Isaac)....Again God has let man exercise His free-will without the heavy hand of control for a period of time to His choosing. At the appropriate time, he then controls its as He did with the Assyrian invasion of Northern Israel. There are no smoking guns here,,,,,God is still in control....whether he has His hand on each of us is a matter of opinion vs letting us do as we will using our Free-will is a matter of simply watching for the fruits of that person....

Have a blessed evening and thanks for the conversation.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I just heard the expression and it popped into my head when I try to figure out how it is that God can speak the world into existence and how, without the sun telling us time, how is it measured before the creation. Personally, I believe we all see through a glass darkly. So this particular subject is outside my imagination skills.

To be honest, though, I’m not sure that scripture proves that God doesn’t know the end from the beginning. In fact, He has to know in order to inform the prophets years and even centuries what would come to pass. Prophecy, itself, pretty much makes it clear.

He doesn't just know what you think, in your head, in secret, in private thoughts and ruminations, He also knows your observable behavior. Even the diabolic know your observable behavior (because they want to exploit it), so why wouldn't God know your observable behavior? He knows both what's in your mind, soul, spirit, heart. And He knows your physical behavior, habits, preferences, etc.

And He knows this for everybody. He can declare what's going to happen, because He knows each one of us like this.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I just heard the expression and it popped into my head when I try to figure out how it is that God can speak the world into existence and how, without the sun telling us time, how is it measured before the creation. Personally, I believe we all see through a glass darkly. So this particular subject is outside my imagination skills.

To be honest, though, I’m not sure that scripture proves that God doesn’t know the end from the beginning. In fact, He has to know in order to inform the prophets years and even centuries what would come to pass. Prophecy, itself, pretty much makes it clear.
Well, God is a really smart and wise person and so no one is suggesting that He doesn't have any idea what's going to happen or is anything close to as ignorant of the future as we are, but He doesn't have to know the future exhaustively in order to make prophesies possible. All He has to have is a plan and a known means to bring that plan about. The fact that some prophesies did not come to pass is proof by itself that God doesn't know the entire future.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I have heard that before "God fails to get what He wants".
Yeah, well, if you've read the bible then you've read it before too!

I quoted LARGE passage of scripture that proves that God does not always get what He wants!

I believe that God is Sovereign over ALL things....
Yeah, and David Koresh believed he was a "sinning Messiah".

He starts out in the Bible with two plans that are so intricate, it would take a lifetime to pull them out of the very WORDs He has spoken. Yet, They are there
No one has suggested that God doesn't plan things.

Do you have Children?...if so you has sovereignty over just about every part of their lives and yet they still had free will,
NOT in the sense that is in keeping with what the word "sovereign" means in normal Christian parlance. Good fathers very definitely are sovereign over their families but only in the sense that is in keeping with the actual, non-religious, definition of the word. Good fathers are the highest authority in their family but there are all kinds of things that happen that are well outside of the father's control. Everything from if and when the new baby spits up his food, to the precise timing of when the baby will go to sleep and for how long, to what the teenager is accessing online behind the closed door of his bedroom. The father has the right and the responsibility to respond appropriately to the things that happen in his household and to define the boundaries between what is and is not acceptable behavior, but that is a far cry from the sort of control that classical christian theologians are talking about when they say that "God is Sovereign over ALL things".

sinned(did not obey) you rules of the house.Yet somehow,everything they did was within you control up unto a certain age.
This is flatly false. I just listed a couple and I could list hundreds of things. The fact that you would even say this causes me to wonder whether you've ever been a father.

Did your control include taking them by the hand on everything or maybe, just maybe allow them to exercise their free will...If they are going in the right direction, they do not need your hands on" control.....Of course, this exercise in the imagination, is far from what God has control over. Your life...If God walks away, we would die for He controls every breathe, every beat of our hearts. He makes us in the womb and gives us our first breathe at birth and stops all bodily functions at death.
NONE of the above is biblical. Are you just making this stuff up as you go or what?

Yes, He could have stopped King David from killing Bathsheba's husband, Uriah by sending him to the front lines. Yet, He did not and because of it, Joseph, the adopted father of Jesus and husband of Jesus' mother, Mary would not have been.
As if it HAD TO BE Mary! As if Mary was the ONLY woman in all of creation that could possibly have served in the role of the mother of the Messiah.

You do not believe this for any reason that has anything to do with the bible.

If all one does is look under the cover and never on the pages of His word, it is easy to say He is not in total control.
I directly quoted more than one passage where God Himself is saying that He doesn't always get what He wants and that things happen that never even entered into His mind.

How much more evidence do you need than that? What is it that makes this doctrine so primary? Where is the blind loyalty to it coming from?

I could go on but it is obvious we are at odds with each other here...
It isn't me you're at odds with so much as it is with God when He says...

"What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?" - Isaiah 5:4

That is fine for everyone (including you and myself) has an opinion.
It is NOT my opinion.

I am seriously asking you what more evidence do you want to prove that your doctrine is wrong here? Is there ANY amount of evidence that could do it or do you just intentional place this doctrine in an untouchable box that is immune to any and all arguments against it?

I believe it is up to GOD to bring everyone that He has elected to believe in every word of His Word.
Yes, and Jim Jones believed that his sexual relationships with both male and female followers was for their spiritual benefit.

(As I reread through my post, I realize that this may come off as an insult. That is not what is intended. The point is that expressing your belief does nothing to establish it as even legitimate, much less true.)

A parable..Here GOD is speaking to Israel, about their beloved Grapevines...Oh how the Jews, love a grapevine. Yet, God is speaking of Mankind in this grapevine and He ask the leaders of the Jews, simply what could have been done for better results....good grapes vs wild grapes. Did God not know the answer,,,,,,Sure He knew the answer but unless He wanted to make mankind a robot and remove man's free will, it was man's fault that the wild grapes appeared. You see, while He could do the Robot and no Free Will route and force everyone to love Him. No, He lets mankind make his own mistakes which is why mankind has to pay the penalty for this freedom.. Much like a child, if one has not taught the child everything they need to know about good and bad, moral and immoral by the time they reach 15-16, it is too late to redo any teachings at a later date. Only God can bring them around.
So, by your own statement, God does not control everything!

Why then do you cling to this errant doctrine? Why acknowledge the doctrine out of one side of your mouth and contradict it from the other? I don't get it.

to make it short and sweet, "for burnt offerings .........which I did not command or speak," This was something new. God had not commanded this type of sacrifice (when--to Israel) that any of the sacrifices for Israel to be 'Human sacrifices' in nature. and while commanding these sacrifices for Israel, using humans for ritual sacrifices had never come into His mind,,nor would they for He could /would not step past sinless animal sacrifice (I.e. Moses and Son Isaac)....Again God has let man exercise His free-will without the heavy hand of control for a period of time to His choosing. At the appropriate time, he then controls its as He did with the Assyrian invasion of Northern Israel. There are no smoking guns here,,,,,God is still in control....whether he has His hand on each of us is a matter of opinion vs letting us do as we will using our Free-will is a matter of simply watching for the fruits of that person....
You need to look up the term "rationalizing".

The passage is clearly communicating that it never entered God's mind that these people would do something so evil as to murder their own children. That's what it says, that what it obviously means. If you don't believe me, just find any third grade child and read him the passage and ask him to explain to you what it means. He will get it right.

The bible is not written is some sort of code where it can't be simply read and understood to mean what it obviously says. The only reason anyone would feel the need to do with it what you've just done is because they have a doctrine that cannot survive the plain reading of the text and so they have to rationalize the plain meaning into oblivion.
 
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glorydaz

Well-known member
And, stuff like this. Psalm 139:2-3

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.​

Well, God is a really smart and wise person and so no one is suggesting that He doesn't have any idea what's going to happen or is anything close to as ignorant of the future as we are, but He doesn't have to know the future exhaustively in order to make prophesies possible. All He has to have is a plan and a known means to bring that plan about. The fact that some prophesies did not come to pass is proof by itself that God doesn't know the entire future.
You mean those prophecies that haven’t come true YET or men haven’t realized? 🧐

One of these days we will see that every single word spoken by God through the prophets come to pass. We are but ants looking out into the vastness that is God. I want to understand every single word written in the BIBLE. Someday we will.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Such passages do not require God to know the whole future in advance, glorydaz!

Again, we aren't suggesting that God is dumb or anything like that. We're simply saying that the idea that God knows absolutely everything there is to know, especially about future events, goes well beyond what the biblical material can support.

What happens is that people have this idea about God in their head and when they read passages like what you quoted above, they read that idea into the text and make it say more than what it actually says.

You mean those prophecies that haven’t come true YET or men haven’t realized? 🧐
No. I mean the prophecies that God made that did not come to pass and that cannot ever come to pass. There are several of them (See below).

One of these days we will see that every single word spoken by God through the prophets come to pass.
No, Glorydaz, that is false. It's a nice thing to believe but it simply isn't the truth.

We are but ants looking out into the vastness that is God. I want to understand every single word written in the BIBLE. Someday we will.
A terrific sentiment that I genuinely applaud. I recommend placing a filter in your mind that attempts to simply read the words on the page and takes passages to mean what they explicitly say and understand that much BEFORE making any attempt to interpret what it might be alluding to or what symbolism is present or any other such thing. Make the PLAIN READING primary. That's not to say that there aren't valid ways to read between the lines or that there isn't rich symbolism to explore but simply that all such things take a back seat to what the text plainly states. If your doctrine cannot survive the plain reading of the text then, at the very least, there is good reason to have concerns about that doctrine's validity.


----------------------------------------------

Prophesies that did not come to pass.....

"Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt...' Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem" Acts 21:11-12; Hezekiah was sick and near death and Isaiah the prophet went to him and said, "Thus says the Lord: 'Set your house in order for you shall die and not live.' Then [Hezekiah] turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying, "Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you." ' " 2 Kings 20:1-5 and Isa. 38:1-5; Moses Ex. 33:15-16.

God says He will "without fail" cast out the Canaanites, Jebusites, etc., but a generation later because of Israel's rebellion, God says that He will not cast them out Josh. 3:10 and Deut. 7:17-20, 22-24 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13. God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy will not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12; 29:18; see there regarding Egypt also.

God prophesied to David by way of the ephod that Saul was on his way and, as to whether the men of Keilah would betray him to Saul, "the Lord said, 'They will deliver you.' " So David departed from there and, "Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition" 1 Sam. 23:9-13 and the Keilahites never delivered David to Saul; Nebuchadnezzar himself did not take Tyre nor did he receive the spoils as prophesied Ezek. 29:18 Ezekiel prophesies that Nebuchadnezzar will take Egypt Ezek. 29:19 but compared to the rest of sacred and profane history, Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt; many scriptures indicate that Jesus would return soon after His departure, such that the apostles would not have time to go through the cities (villages) of Israel before Jesus returns Mat. 10:23; that some standing there may not die until they see the Son of Man returning in power in His kingdom Mat. 16:28 (not referencing the Transfiguration, because that occurred almost immediately); the apostle John might have remained alive until Christ's return John 21:23; [the near Second Coming explains the otherwise seeming reckless teachings of "Sell what you have" Luke 12:33; "And everyone who has left houses... or lands, for My name's sake" Mat. 19:29. "do not worry about your life, what you will eat" Luke 12:22. The "ravens... neither sow nor reap" yet "God feeds them" Luke 12:24; "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your moneybelts" Mat. 10:9; "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and... come, follow Me" Luke 18:22;] the generation Jesus was speaking to would not pass until the tribulation and Second Coming prophecies took place Mat. 24:34; yet God had warned He may not give Israel their kingdom as prophesied for "the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice [such as in rejecting their resurrected Messiah], then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it" Jer. 18:9-10; thus God views the end times calendar as changeable, "I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time" Isa. 60:22; and even the saints can change the time of Christ's return as Peter wrote that believers too should set about "hastening the coming of the day of God" 2 Peter 3:12; and even the length of the tribulation will change as Jesus said that, "those days will be shortened" Mat. 24:22; [so expecting Christ's soon return therefore, in early Acts, the converts of the Lord, of Peter, and of the rest of the Twelve, sold their homes and their land Acts 4:34-35; 5:1-2; (but the converts of the one sent to the Gentiles, the apostle Paul, did not sell their homes or fields for from them He raised relief 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1-9:15; Gal. 2:10; Rom. 15:25–31; Acts 11:27–30; 24:17 for the believers who had sold their homes]; and like the shortening of the tribulation, the three days of God's punishment were cut short, for "Thus says the Lord: '... choose... seven years of famine... Or... flee three months before your enemies... Or... three days' plague..." And David said... "Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great..." So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time [i.e., of the evening sacrifice]. And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." ... Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people and said, "Surely I have sinned and I have done wickedly but... what have they done? ... So the Lord heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel." 2 Sam. 24:12-17, 25; the prophecy of expelling the pagan nations from the promised land would not be fulfilled as it had been prophesied Josh. 3:10 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13; God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy did not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12. [See also Jer. 18:6-10.]

- the above is quoted directly from OpenTheism.org
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Yeah, well, if you've read the bible then you've read it before too!
?????
I quoted LARGE passage of scripture that proves that God does not always get what He wants!


Yeah, and David Koresh believed he was a "sinning Messiah".
yes, a parable
No one has suggested that God doesn't plan things.


NOT in the sense that is in keeping with what the word "sovereign" means in normal Christian parlance. Good fathers very definitely are sovereign over their families but only in the sense that is in keeping with the actual, non-religious, definition of the word. Good fathers are the highest authority in their family but there are all kinds of things that happen that are well outside of the father's control. Everything from if and when the new baby spits up his food, to the precise timing of when the baby will go to sleep and for how long, to what the teenager is accessing online behind the closed door of his bedroom. The father has the right and the responsibility to respond appropriately to the things that happen in his household and to define the boundaries between what is and is not acceptable behavior, but that is a far cry from the sort of control that classical christian theologians are talking about when they say that "God is Sovereign over ALL things".
as I stated, God is far above that of man......
This is flatly false. I just listed a couple and I could list hundreds of things. The fact that you would even say this causes me to wonder whether you've ever been a father.
I was not talking about things that could happen...was talking about the activity of the child and his obedience to a father's rules....sorry you did not see that.
NONE of the above is biblical. Are you just making this stuff up as you go or what?
is your opinion....
As if it HAD TO BE Mary! As if Mary was the ONLY woman in all of creation that could possibly have served in the role of the mother of the Messiah.

You do not believe this for any reason that has anything to do with the bible.
OK, you don;t understand God's plan at all.
I directly quoted more than one passage where God Himself is saying that He doesn't always get what He wants and that things happen that never even entered into His mind.

How much more evidence do you need than that? What is it that makes this doctrine so primary? Where is the blind loyalty to it coming from?
I have found nothing you have presented as things that God did not get what He wanted. What GOD wants is what He gets.
It isn't me you're at odds with so much as it is with God when He says...

"What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?" - Isaiah 5:4
I explained this and if that is not enough for you to look into it, ok.
It is NOT my opinion.

I am seriously asking you what more evidence do you want to prove that your doctrine is wrong here?
laughing,,,,,This is the same type situation that GOD was asking the leaders of Israel/Judah what they needed for the wide grapes not to grow....you see the differences..It could have been a child where, you as father asking the what was it going to take for them to be obedient aside from what you already have done..maybe paddling, grounding would come to mind...but He was asking them for He already knew what He was going to do.
Is there ANY amount of evidence that could do it or do you just intentional place this doctrine in an untouchable box that is immune to any and all arguments against it?
Doctrines (teachings) of the Bible (God's Word) are above reproach. He tells us this in 2 Tim 3:16.."All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
Yes, and Jim Jones believed that his sexual relationships with both male and female followers was for their spiritual benefit.

(As I reread through my post, I realize that this may come off as an insult. That is not what is intended. The point is that expressing your belief does nothing to establish it as even legitimate, much less true.)


So, by your own statement, God does not control everything!

Why then do you cling to this errant doctrine? Why acknowledge the doctrine out of one side of your mouth and contradict it from the other? I don't get it.


You need to look up the term "rationalizing".

The passage is clearly communicating that it never entered God's mind that these people would do something so evil as to murder their own children. That's what it says, that what it obviously means. If you don't believe me, just find any third grade child and read him the passage and ask him to explain to you what it means. He will get it right.

The bible is not written is some sort of code where it can't be simply read and understood to mean what it obviously says. The only reason anyone would feel the need to do with it what you've just done is because they have a doctrine that cannot survive the plain reading of the text and so they have to rationalize the plain meaning into oblivion.
It has been said that the Bible is so simple to read and gather the same summary of God's plan for all of us....Yet it is so complex, one can spend a lifetime in its pages....it is where I am at. The Word of GOD, His prophecy, His grace, His GLORY....It is all there....it is always good to take some time to really read it.

Thanks for the conversation....
 

JudgeRightly

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I have found nothing you have presented as things that God did not get what He wanted. What GOD wants is what He gets.

Was God lying in the following passage?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under wings, but you were not willing!

Did God get what He wanted here?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Was God lying in the following passage?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under wings, but you were not willing!

Did God get what He wanted here?
God wants us to be perfect, but He is knows we won’t be.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Was God lying in the following passage?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under wings, but you were not willing!

Did God get what He wanted here?
hi JudgeRightly. This verse is usually used in the defence of the Free-Will of man yet you quote it to make another point. Interesting!

God states that He would have gathered not wanting to gather as explained below.

Mat 23:37..(KJV).."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

This is a little different meaning than the Bible version you quoted.
The Greek word for "would", "would I" or "wouldest" is "thelō"
meaning " The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).

"How often I wanted to gather your children" vs "how often would I have gathered thy children" do not equate with each other. "Would I have" expresses at the most a desire which is similar to "I wanted" yet:

What's the Difference?​

Desire and want are two closely related concepts, yet they have distinct differences. Desire refers to a strong feeling or longing for something, often driven by emotions or personal preferences. It is an internal motivation that arises from our innermost desires and aspirations. Want, on the other hand, is a more immediate and tangible expression of desire. It represents a specific need or requirement that we feel compelled to fulfill. While desire is more abstract and subjective, want is more concrete and objective. In essence, desire is the underlying force that fuels our wants, making them more focused and actionable. (https://thisvsthat.io/desire-vs-want)

Neither the two shall meet.....

had to work for this answer. thanks'
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
hi JudgeRightly. This verse is usually used in the defence of the Free-Will of man yet you quote it to make another point. Interesting!

God states that He would have gathered not wanting to gather as explained below.

Mat 23:37..(KJV).."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

This is a little different meaning than the Bible version you quoted.
The Greek word for "would", "would I" or "wouldest" is "thelō"
meaning " The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).

"How often I wanted to gather your children" vs "how often would I have gathered thy children" do not equate with each other. "Would I have" expresses at the most a desire which is similar to "I wanted" yet:

What's the Difference?​

Desire and want are two closely related concepts, yet they have distinct differences. Desire refers to a strong feeling or longing for something, often driven by emotions or personal preferences. It is an internal motivation that arises from our innermost desires and aspirations. Want, on the other hand, is a more immediate and tangible expression of desire. It represents a specific need or requirement that we feel compelled to fulfill. While desire is more abstract and subjective, want is more concrete and objective. In essence, desire is the underlying force that fuels our wants, making them more focused and actionable. (https://thisvsthat.io/desire-vs-want)

Neither the two shall meet.....

had to work for this answer. thanks'
That right there is grasping at straws. Nice try, though.
 

JudgeRightly

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Bladerunner, you said:

I have found nothing you have presented as things that God did not get what He wanted. What GOD wants is what He gets.

Was God lying in the following passage?

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under wings, but you were not willing!

Did God get what He wanted here?

I never got an answer to my question.

Did God get what He wanted?

God willed to gather them.

They refused to be gathered.

This isn't hard.
Did God gather them or not?

hi JudgeRightly. This verse is usually used in the defence of the Free-Will of man yet you quote it to make another point. Interesting!

God states that He would have gathered not wanting to gather as explained below.

Mat 23:37..(KJV).."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

This is a little different meaning than the Bible version you quoted.
The Greek word for "would", "would I" or "wouldest" is "thelō"
meaning " The KJV translates Strong's G2309 in the following manner: will/would (159x), will/would have (16x), desire (13x), desirous (3x), list (3x), to will (2x), miscellaneous (4x).

"How often I wanted to gather your children" vs "how often would I have gathered thy children" do not equate with each other. "Would I have" expresses at the most a desire which is similar to "I wanted" yet:

What's the Difference?​

Desire and want are two closely related concepts, yet they have distinct differences. Desire refers to a strong feeling or longing for something, often driven by emotions or personal preferences. It is an internal motivation that arises from our innermost desires and aspirations. Want, on the other hand, is a more immediate and tangible expression of desire. It represents a specific need or requirement that we feel compelled to fulfill. While desire is more abstract and subjective, want is more concrete and objective. In essence, desire is the underlying force that fuels our wants, making them more focused and actionable. (https://thisvsthat.io/desire-vs-want)

Neither the two shall meet.....

had to work for this answer. thanks'

You're making a distinction without a difference.

God willed/desired/wanted to gather them. Did God ever gather them?

Did God lie?

Or is your following claim false?:

I have found nothing you have presented as things that God did not get what He wanted. What GOD wants is what He gets.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Bladerunner, you said:





I never got an answer to my question.
I see
Did God get what He wanted?

God willed to gather them.

They refused to be gathered.

This isn't hard.
Did God gather them or not?
God would have gathered "the Children" had not the Leaders refused.
In this case, God did not gather the children of Israel nor have they been gathered since that time. (the answer to your question)
This is speaking of the millennium and only then will the Remnant of Israel be gathered.

As for the word play to gather a flaw in the Word of GOD, I will leave that to you. I interpret the Bible literally, Historically and grammatically which is why the previous post, It is important to determine what the interpreter meant at the time it was written as they were closer to the date it was spoken than we are. there is a difference in "How many times Would I have Gathered the Children" vs "How often I wanted to have gathered the Children".

In other words my version states that God was willing to gather the children if the leaders allowed it and the version you are suggesting states that because the Leaders of Israel refused, GOD failed. If this is the case, then we all need to quit reading any Bible or anything that states it is the WORD of GOD. Why? they cannot be trusted to be true...none of them

did God Lie: Not that I can find in this scripture.

thanks for the conversation.
 

SwordOfTruth

Active member
I interpret the Bible literally

Then you're missing a lot of important information which has been concealed allegorically and cryptically in the text.

If this is the case, then we all need to quit reading any Bible or anything that states it is the WORD of GOD. Why? they cannot be trusted to be true...none of them

Yep this

They are all human works, even if the content was inspired by God. You can't ever be sure other humans didn't doctor or censor out certain bits either deliberately or in translation. Just look at the "Other" Gospels, testimonies from Judas, Mary, Thomas etc. They weren't allowed into the final cut. Why, because imo they don't fit the overall narrative that the Bible constructors wanted to peddle.

If God is who religion claims him to be, so all-powerful and intelligent then he wouldn't be daft enough to convey the most important messages for humans on something as fickle as bits of paper or parchment that would undoubtedly perish and crumble over 100s of years. He would etch the messages into the side of a mountain with lightning where they would be seen for milennia. Just ask yourself, if you were tasked with recoding say the Encylopeadia Britannica in a form that future civilisation 5000 years from now would be able to pick up and use, how would YOU record it?
You certainly wouldn't wrap up a paperback or hardback copy of it would you ?!!!!! You might try encoding it on a CD or DVD though even that would be fickle. Just think it through. Think of what would be the best way to preserve all that important content for 5000 yrs given there might be an apocalyptic event along the way, say a nuclear armageddon or massive flooding. Now imagine you're God, you know all that can be known, you know what will happen in the future. Realise then how supremely untennable it is that God would use parchment to record this vital information on.


did God Lie: Not that I can find in this scripture.

You're (entirely valid) question is about the differences between differnce Bible versions and translations for which there will be a defacto standard answer posted shortly I predict. But the wider question is the validity or completeness of any of the versions given they're all man-made physical material things.
 
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