On the omniscience of God
- Thread starter JudgeRightly
- Start date
See post #1060.
God knows men's hearts. But men don't know everything.
Abraham likely did not know if he was going to follow through with God's command to offer up Isaac right up until he reached out to grab the knife and took it.
God stopped him when he took the knife, because that was enough of a commitment to offering up his son for God to know Abraham's heart.
Thus, "NOW I know."
It means "now."
You're welcome to disagree, but then you'd be wrong.
| Strong's h6258 - Lexical: עַתָּה - Transliteration: attah - Part of Speech: Adverb - Phonetic Spelling: at-taw' - Definition: now. - Origin: From eth; at this time, whether adverb, conjunction or expletive. - Usage: henceforth, now, straightway, this time, whereas. - Translated as (count): now (217), therefore now (78), now therefore (35), But now (25), And therefore (19), so now (7), from this time forth (5), And now (4), And yet now (4), Therefore (4), by now (3), for now (3), from this time (3), And (2), And then (2), And whereas (2), from now on (2), Therefore at once (2), yet (2), and as soon as (1), And Even now (1), and yet (1), But now therefore (1), from that time forward (1), just now (1), now if (1), so (1), so therefore (1), than now (1), then (1), Then now (1). |
Lon
Well-known member
Not at all. Rather it seems God 'knew' Abraham would be there. 'Knew' that Isaac was going to be there. "Now"?
Banking vs knowing complicates. What did He know? To me? Everything. It's easy. Simple. A child can understand (forgive).
Rather, that it wasn't 'now.' If as you say, nothing is hidden, not even our thoughts, "Now" as an English translation is a difficult proposition. It is why we have concordances, the translators didn't want us slaves to English.
But not until the act is completed or near completed? These are your thoughts prior. It may exasperate, it is not my intention. I'm asking for clarifications here.
I agree but for "God to know" or "Abraham to know?" How does it jive with knowing his thoughts 'before now?' Honest question despite how pedantic. It needs to be pedantic else I wouldn't ask.
"...so that He could know that Abraham...(was)...after...(His)...heart. I don't see it this way, but when I 'try' to climb into your thoughts, this doesn't make sense. You've just said God already knows? At the moment, it doesn't add up.
If it made sense. It presently does not and sorry for the frustration such might cause. Some people don't like kids asking why all the time. I have to our I'll never understand why anybody would become Open Theist when it seems, at least, to not make sense when I walk away from Genesis 22.
In my scriptural understanding, He never counts, but sustains. The 'counting' would just be 'recollection' or like. I'm trying to find out how an Open Theist thinks God keeps the number. He literally would have to count over and over and over from afar? I'd imagine some Open Theists would say the verse is a figure of speech. For me, I can't. The Lord Jesus had just talked about sparrows and asserted firmly in my mind that of the billion, not one falls without God knowing it. Such implies an intimacy near enough to omnipresence for you, and for me.
Colossians 1 sets Him as sustainer (presently) of all that exists. The greek word συνεστηκεν (perfect, active, indicative) Consists/Holds-together; indicate that God doesn't do the inane, but actively even the mundane. For me the question: Why does God know something as seemingly trivial as how many hairs I have today and how many I've lost? Incidental to sustaining would be a good guess and is a scriptural given. Because sustaining (active indicative) is ongoing, it necessarily means omnipresence. Granted not all believe Colossians 1:17 means what I believe it does, but it seems clear from the text and a bit of concordance work. I can read Greek, need helps similar to the rest of you. I have to keep fresh word endings but can roughly translate, and over longer period of time could translate every Greek verse. You can too, using concordances, word studies and morphological books, but I recognize a good number of Greek words and it helps.
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Not at all. Rather it seems God 'knew' Abraham would be there. 'Knew' that Isaac was going to be there. "Now"?
Your wife knows you're going to be at work tomorrow, does she not?
And again, it's not like Abraham was being dragged there kicking and screaming, for three days straight!
This is why you have a hard time.
Don't assume "everything." Doing so is eisegesis.
God can't know someone's thought if the thought never exists.
God cannot know what Abraham will do before he starts the chain of thought-command in his brain to reach out and pick up the knife.
But the VERY MOMENT he does, God knows!
Thus, "NOW I know."
Supra. I literally just got done saying God knows our thoughts before we put them into words. (or actions, such as typing out the thoughts or putting thought into action.
The text does not say nor indicate that God knew that Abraham would, in fact, sacrifice his only son on the altar, UNTIL the EXACT MOMENT Abraham reached out and took the knife.
I submit that God knew the moment Abraham committed to reaching out, but writing doesn't quite permit simultaneous actions to be described except in sequence.
Knows what?
God knows some things, and not others. And He can make predictions based on what He knows, and plan for it, and He even makes contingencies for when those predictions fail. That doesn't describe a God that "knows everything". That describes a living God, one who goes through time like the rest of us, interacting and forming relationships.
Why is that so hard to comprehend? Unless you're still assuming "God knows everything"? If so, drop the "God knows everything" assumption, and the problem goes away.
It does make sense. Or are you asserting scripture doesn't make sense?
Because all I'm doing is describing what the Bible says...
Lon
Well-known member
Spoiler
You weren't probably reading my exchange with Clete. Strong's is good albeit an abbreviated version of Brown,Driver,Briggs, Strong's generally/mostly for casual bible readers. Pastor's do go to it first among their works, but usually when words get this attention, they begin breaking into their library shelves for the i-ndepth study and etymology. When I began Greek (BDB is Hebrew, I had to have it for that class too) class, we had to buy BDB (now available for free online among other very good Greek and Hebrew helps). See
| H6258 | עַתָּה | ʿatâ | now, whereas, henceforth, this time forth, straightway |
I read it.
That's nice, but completely irrelevant. A casual Bible reading is enough to glean the meaning from the Bible.
You don't need to be a studied professor of Hebrew or Greek to know what the Bible says at face value.
It's easy enough for a child to understand.
I'm not sure what you were trying to prove here.
None of this goes against anything I said.
The point was that God, prior to Abraham reaching out and grabbing the knife, did not know whether Abraham would not withhold his only son, and that, "henceforth," "this time forth," "whereas" Abraham had not, and "now" he did pick it up, NOW God knows.
Thanks for proving my position and falsifying yours.
Lon
Well-known member
Definitely, approximately, reliably? Out the gate I'd say 'no.' She may think she knows, but this is ancillary knowledge. Know is a misnomer but rather 'expectation' than actually knowing. They only way she can know is if she comes and checks and such is within the scope of what we are asserting about God so good question.
Right, so 'now' is, as I said, problematic, even if I were Open Theist. I'd examine it the same exact way.
Of course! I was giving you my shoes for a moment, after a similar fashion. Right now I'm trying on a pair of "Open" toed shoes. Not really my style, but a few people I know wear them. I live in rainy weather so it is a chore (hope analogy works).
Of course not. In this, Open Logic follows but then we'd disagree on 'what' precisely is knowable. Rather, we tend to use 'non'omniscience to qualify omniscience when we try to qualify it. Does God know (blank) does not exist? Surely. When you say 'pink unicorn' did you make up something God wasn't aware of? At that venture I'd say 'no.' "Pink" and "unicorn" are in the dictionary. Even you know what it is if someone comes along and says "Black Bogey!" Doesn't exist, but we know what it is. When we say God is good, there is an idea of saying what it is not (sin/wicked) but we are still left not describing good other than what it is not. I do not have a problem with saying "God does not know what I have never thought" but likely He does, if it exists or is capable of existing.
Why? What keeps it from happening?
▲Reconcile these two seeming opposite ideas for me?
I've put a knife to my stomach at age 8 ready to see Jesus. I stopped because it hurt. I had every intention of plunging and cowardly dropped the knife (I told God I was a coward bawling my little eyes out). Life was very hard then. There was no ram in the thicket, no angel to stop me. I cannot fathom God didn't know my heart. My obedience? I'd think knowing me as well as He does, He knew what was to happen all along the way.
Agree and yet another reason to ask questions of translation.
How do you know that? Isn't it reasoning, hypothesis, speculation?
For me? Too trite. Too quick at early dismissal. I don't want to settle. I want to know what is true. At present, I believe God sustains the universe. Because of it, every draw of power, every act of thought may not be deterministic, but certainly known. It is a power-draw (for lack of a better term). Jesus immediately ask "Who touched me?" In His human form, perhaps he didn't know, but the Father would have, easily. "Who touched me" does not necessitate that He was looking for an answer, but a response from the one He knew did touch Him (similar to Adam where are you?)
No, I'm asserting translation doesn't, right?
I agree and doing a fine job, but I'm asking questions yet. My study isn't over. If it were, we'd just ignore each other and walk away.
I'm asking "How is it, God, that only 'Now' you knew? Do you know hearts? Was Abraham struggling to the very end? If so, it'd still be You knew even the dilemma in his heart. How then is it that 'now' and only 'now' you knew? "How did you 'know' that Abraham would actually plunge the knife then? What if he stopped mid-stride? How did You actually know? Or didn't You?
VladtheDestroyer
Member
Open Theism aside; You, I and all of us will have different ways of thinking about God. And there is not necessarily anything wrong with that. I am sure that, as Christians, God instills in us certain truths about Him. After all, our relationship with Him is a 2 way street. And His way is going to be true and correct and ours way will always be the way of a child learning from his father.
It is difficult for all of us, to convey with words or even with our thoughts, how awesome He is and how eternally grateful we should be for what Jesus did for us.
It's difficult to comprehend spiritual things. Of course!
But some take these difficulties and put extra difficulties in front of them. Then they call other Christians blasphemers and heretics for not doing the same, and effectively set themselves up as gatekeepers to scriptural and spiritual understanding.
All the Open Theists are saying is "Don't do that!"
That's what Calvinism is. It's gatekeeping. You don't have to understand infinity to be able to pray to God or have a relationship with Him. Give me a break! That's not in the Bible. Nor is that a truth God instilled in us when we began our relationship with Him.
Because if the Omni's and the Infinities were a requirement for a relationship with God through Jesus our Saviour, THEN WE WOULD ALL HAVE THAT UNDERSTANDING!
So no. Calvinism is not "ok". Because it insists that everyone who chooses not too place added difficulties in front of a relationship with Jesus is a heretic. And we ARE NOT. But if Calvinism is true, then we are, because Calvinists would then be the gatekeepers to the pathway to Jesus! But there are no gatekeepers. Christianity is not an institution!!
Look at people like James White or Matt Slick. Do they love the Lord? Of course they do! These guys are warriors for Jesus Christ! But that does not change the fact that the standard they are using to judge me as a heretic is a Calvinist standard. Not a biblical one. Calvinism is what does that. Not Jesus. It's time for it to end.