NFL 2016

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Town Heretic

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Hall of Fame
Montana lost his fair share of playoff games and missed the playoffs entirely occasionally. He lost the NFC championship a couple times. Threw quite a few interceptions too.
True of every elite quarterback. What separates him is that when he got there, he won. Every time.

It would be difficult for many but probably not most, since most of those who are not already huge Brady fans, are probably never going to be won over, since they all hold various things against Brady that Brady can never make up for.
I never rooted for Montana. I'm not a fan of the 49ers. I didn't root for Jordan either. And as much as I disliked the Lakers, I'd take Magic over just about anyone if I was starting a team.

Even if Brady were to win the next five or six consecutive SBs, throwing six or less picks per season, I doubt very much that Town for instance would yield on Montana being Brady's better. :idunno: Past sins.
You'd be wrong about me, at any rate. What I disdain is people buying into sports media driven conclusions that don't rest on objective truth. Deflate gate doesn't impact my opinion of Brady as a quarterback. I think it's likely he had a hand in. I also don't think it had anything to do with his success. At best it gave him a sense of comfort. His skill set isn't predicated on that.

Again, Brady is probably in my top five. But he's not Montana. As it stands it took him six games to win the same number of rings as Montana, who managed it in four. And those two losses came against a team they should have beaten in years when he steered the best offense of his career.

That's the plain, unforgiving truth. And there's no shame in it. He's a winner. One of the best...he's just not the best.
 

Nihilo

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The question we're all avoiding in this particular discussion of course is, who is the final authority on the matter? The more pertinent question is is there one. And the answer is no. There is no "GOAT." It's a fictional myth. The reason it's a fiction is because there's no ultimate authority to pronounce a "GOAT." Since that doesn't exist, a "GOAT" can't exist.

What we've proven on this forum is that might makes right, where might is who is the best arguer. And that's not a final authority or supreme judge. That's just sparring, back and forth, and it's not the best determiner of truth, especially if the question of whether there is a truth or not is currently open. Whether or not John W is the best arguer on the forum shouldn't determine that MAD is the Apostolic (and Pauline) Christian faith, but that's what we've got here, in this discussion about a "GOAT" in the NFL. There's no prize, no award, no trophy, no dictionary entry or newspaper of record to point to, no nothing. All everybody's got is an opinion and they all stink, as opinions tend to do.

So that's why I said, Jerry, "Meh," a couple posts ago, because all we're really able to learn here is not who the "GOAT" is, or if there even is such a thing. The more we talk about it the more clear it is that all we're really discerning is who's the best arguer, and if this were theology, it would be John W, and in this thread it's between Town and Tetelestai and some others. That's the long and short of it.

So in a sense it's fruitless to contend one way or another for a "GOAT," as if such a thing could even exist. It's difficult to imagine what kind of structure you'd have to construct to provide a credible claim to such a title. And besides, as Town's said countless times, it's a treat just to watch Brady, and let's enjoy watching him while we've got him, and we don't have to compare and contrast, nobody's holding a gun to our heads, and it isn't helpful anyway, nor fun. Tonight Brady threw his 2nd pick in 9 games. Montana's minimum in anything resembling a complete season was 7, but that's neither here nor there, obviously.

:eek:
 

Nihilo

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True of every elite quarterback. What separates him is that when he got there, he won. Every time.
Right, and he was stopped from getting there every other time.
I never rooted for Montana. I'm not a fan of the 49ers. I didn't root for Jordan either. And as much as I disliked the Lakers, I'd take Magic over just about anyone if I was starting a team.
I know you're very analytical.
You'd be wrong about me, at any rate. What I disdain is people buying into sports media driven conclusions that don't rest on objective truth. Deflate gate doesn't impact my opinion of Brady as a quarterback. I think it's likely he had a hand in. I also don't think it had anything to do with his success. At best it gave him a sense of comfort. His skill set isn't predicated on that.
He'd have never made the commercial he did, if there was anything to that Spanish inquisition-like silliness.
Again, Brady is probably in my top five. But he's not Montana. As it stands it took him six games to win the same number of rings as Montana, who managed it in four. And those two losses came against a team they should have beaten in years when he steered the best offense of his career.
And as Jerry pointed out, two of those games were not even complete contests, SF far outmatched both Miami and Denver---the Denver game was worse than the Chicago-NE SBXX drubbing.
That's the plain, unforgiving truth. And there's no shame in it. He's a winner. One of the best...he's just not the best.
Opinions. :idunno: I'm going to take your advice and quit bothering about this. He's 39 and healthy and who knows how long he's got. And plus, it looks like Rodgers is back on track, and that makes two exceptional QBs on the gridiron this season to root for, for us QB fans. :party:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I'm going to take your advice and quit bothering about this. He's 39 and healthy and who knows how long he's got. And plus, it looks like Rodgers is back on track, and that makes two exceptional QBs on the gridiron this season to root for, for us QB fans.

Aaron Rodgers leads all NFL quarterbacks in the list of "NFL Career Passing Rating Leaders--Regular Season" (Through Nov.28, 2016) with a rating of 103.4.

Number two is Russell Wilson who is at 100.4.

Number three and dear to my heart is Tony Romo at 97.1.

Number four is Tom Brady at 97.0.

Number twelve on this list is Joe Montana at 92.3.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_career_passer_rating_leaders
 

Daniel1769

New member
It's impossible to compare quarterbacks of different eras. Different rules, different styles. You can't really compare a QB from an era where the rules didn't perpetuate big passing yards, where there were less games played, and it was just different. Guys I enjoy watching tape of, that were great would be

Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Jim McMahon
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
 

Nihilo

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From the front page of NFL.com

"The Patriots continued their quest for home-field advantage in the playoffs, beating the Ravens 30-23 Monday night behind an impressive performance by their Super Bowl-caliber offense" (emphasis mine).

What? They have had a SB-caliber QB every time Brady's under center, but this team is not right now a SB-caliber offense, not with how deep they are in their chart. Their passable. The only thing making them tough is the QB and the playcalling (depending upon how distinct those two are).
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
From the front page of NFL.com

"The Patriots continued their quest for home-field advantage in the playoffs, beating the Ravens 30-23 Monday night behind an impressive performance by their Super Bowl-caliber offense" (emphasis mine).

What? They have had a SB-caliber QB every time Brady's under center, but this team is not right now a SB-caliber offense, not with how deep they are in their chart. Their passable. The only thing making them tough is the QB and the playcalling (depending upon how distinct those two are).

Yes, Brady finds a way no matter what!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Right, and he was stopped from getting there every other time.
Some of the best rarely if ever got there. And many a decent but not that particularly great qb did, like Trent Dilfer.

I know you're very analytical.
To me that's half the fun. The next quarter is arguing with people who are fans first and rational second. Then, of course, there's the actual game. :eek:

He'd have never made the commercial he did, if there was anything to that Spanish inquisition-like silliness.
Never understimate the shrewd and guiding advice of a better half...or his promo team. But, again, it never impacted my opinion of his talent. If someone gave me a choice and he was available I'd be thinking about it.

And as Jerry pointed out, two of those games were not even complete contests, SF far outmatched both Miami and Denver---the Denver game was worse than the Chicago-NE SBXX drubbing.
The Giant's games shouldn't have been close. But then, there's a reason why a team beats a conference to make it to the SB.

The first team SF beat in the SB, without Rice, was Cincinnati. The Bengals had the #2 offense in the league that year and won one fewer games than SF. SF was roughly tied for 8th. Joe was MVP.

The second SB was against Miami. The Fins were 14-2 that year and had the highest rated offense in the league. The best defense? SF. Miami led 10-7 at the end of the first quarter and that was the highest scoring opening quarter in SB history. Different league and rules back then. Joe's MVP winning 300+ yards was a SB record.

SF's third SB, the first one with Rice, was a Bengals rematch. Cin brought a 12-4 record and the number one offense to the contest. SF (10-6) came in with the 6th best defense. Another close game.

Joe's last SB was against that Denver team. Denver had the 7th best offense that year and the 1st at defense. That's no patsy. MVP: Joe Montana. That offense was so potent (and the defense was 3rd, edging Cleveland by a point) that Denver went in a 12 pt dog. But then, Brady's team went into its first Giant's SB a 12 pt favorite. So the "no contest" cries of some are largely the product of hindsight. You get two teams that good you better play the game first. And the MVP: Joe.

Opinions. :idunno: I'm going to take your advice and quit bothering about this.
Don't let it bother you. Have fun with it. If it isn't fun don't do it. That's the best advice I can give anyone. To me, arguing about this is a great deal of fun. I try to approach it in that spirit.

He's 39 and healthy and who knows how long he's got.
I hope he plays well into his 40s and at a high level, goes out on his own terms. But at that age you're always one injury away from a swift decline.

And plus, it looks like Rodgers is back on track, and that makes two exceptional QBs on the gridiron this season to root for, for us QB fans.
Don't leave Brees out, or Rivers. Great captains with leaky ships. And there's another generation trying to get feet in the door. A very good time to be an NFL fan.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
It's impossible to compare quarterbacks of different eras
Past a point I think that's true. In the modern era less so, though you have to recognize the impact of rules changes that have inflated numbers, along with the extra games. So there's a subjective element in it to be sure.

Joe Montana
Best ever at maximizing what he had in front of him.
Terry Bradshaw
Today he wouldn't get the chance to show you what he could do in a big game. Home run hitter with horrible averages.
John Elway
Undeniable greatness, but most of it wasted on inferior teams and coaching. We only got a glimpse of what might have been when he had better, late.
Jim McMahon
A more talented version of the tier of qbs who rode defenses to championships.
Peyton Manning
Star crossed. Or, the Marino curse. He was too good on bad teams, elevating their play while denying them draft picks to relieve the drop off. Always had a handful of talent on largely spotty teams (the sort that won 2 games when he was out) with inconsistent and less than great coaching. Another largely wasted talent, for all the accolades.
Ben Roethlisberger
Gets overlooked because, like Bradshaw he rode a defense to his first ring, but unlike Bradshaw got better among other greats who took the luster. Underrated by the public at large.
 

Nihilo

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Yes, Brady finds a way no matter what!
He doesn't though, not anymore. When he whiffed against NYG to wind up 18-and-1, it was the beginning of normalcy for him. He's typically favored from then till now, but he doesn't put one in the can nearly as frequently as he did when he first came out of the gates. The whole league is better now than then and I think that Brady and Belichick are an inestimable reason for that, because every other team had to get to work to figure out how to stop or at least slow down the NE juggernaut led by Brady. They have. He's no longer the miracle worker he was, and it's because he performed all those miracles that he is no longer a miracle worker. 'Same reason they went 18-and-1 that year.
 

Daniel1769

New member
Past a point I think that's true. In the modern era less so, though you have to recognize the impact of rules changes that have inflated numbers, along with the extra games. So there's a subjective element in it to be sure.


Best ever at maximizing what he had in front of him.

Today he wouldn't get the chance to show you what he could do in a big game. Home run hitter with horrible averages.

Undeniable greatness, but most of it wasted on inferior teams and coaching. We only got a glimpse of what might have been when he had better, late.

A more talented version of the tier of qbs who rode defenses to championships.

Star crossed. Or, the Marino curse. He was too good on bad teams, elevating their play while denying them draft picks to relieve the drop off. Always had a handful of talent on largely spotty teams (the sort that won 2 games when he was out) with inconsistent and less than great coaching. Another largely wasted talent, for all the accolades.

Gets overlooked because, like Bradshaw he rode a defense to his first ring, but unlike Bradshaw got better among other greats who took the luster. Underrated by the public at large.

I'm not necessarily even talking about "greatness" per se. These are the good ones I like to watch. Elway was that play maker, could get out of the pocket and extend plays, Roethlisberger reminds me of him.

Bradshaw never had amazing stats, but he could win the big game. He could be under a pile of defensive players (where a whistle would be blown today) and come running out the other side for a big play.

I like Jim McMahon's style too, but his big personality might be more the reason. Kind of like Joe Namath to me. He was a decent QB but it was the persona that helped make them legendary, IMO.

And Manning is just passing greatness. No big name players to speak of, but could rack up those yards and TD's.

Sure, Brady is a better overall QB than guys like Bradshaw, but I love that smash mouth, stripped down style of football that Bradshaw played in. It's just my preference of guys I enjoy watching. Is Ben as accurate as Brady? He can be at at times, but I like the way he plays. Out of the pocket, extending plays, shaking off tackles. Just my preferences and opinions. I recognize that mine aren't the only ones. I agree with a lot of what you said.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I'm not necessarily even talking about "greatness" per se. These are the good ones I like to watch. Elway was that play maker, could get out of the pocket and extend plays, Roethlisberger reminds me of him.
I can understand that. I wasn't a Packer fan, but I always enjoyed watching Favre play the game.

Bradshaw never had amazing stats, but he could win the big game. He could be under a pile of defensive players (where a whistle would be blown today) and come running out the other side for a big play.
Big, strong and determined. Big Ben resembles him in that. Tough to bring down. Tebow had a lot of that in him, but he was trying to win the position in the wrong era.

I like Jim McMahon's style too, but his big personality might be more the reason. Kind of like Joe Namath to me. He was a decent QB but it was the persona that helped make them legendary, IMO.
He was fun, there's no doubt about it. Namath could really play, but his wheels came off and that limited him.

And Manning is just passing greatness. No big name players to speak of, but could rack up those yards and TD's.
He's my favorite of his generation, if by a hair.

Sure, Brady is a better overall QB than guys like Bradshaw, but I love that smash mouth, stripped down style of football that Bradshaw played in. It's just my preference of guys I enjoy watching. Is Ben as accurate as Brady? He can be at at times, but I like the way he plays. Out of the pocket, extending plays, shaking off tackles. Just my preferences and opinions. I recognize that mine aren't the only ones. I agree with a lot of what you said.
Ben has the misfortune to be playing in an era with a few other qbs who have better markets, savvy marketing, and a higher charisma number. He's terrific. Put Brees on the right team and people's heads would explode. Heck, put rivers on one. There are always a few qbs who get the other side of the luck of the draw. At least Brees got an opportunistic defense and a chance to put his stamp on the big game.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
It's impossible to compare quarterbacks of different eras. Different rules, different styles. You can't really compare a QB from an era where the rules didn't perpetuate big passing yards, where there were less games played, and it was just different. Guys I enjoy watching tape of, that were great would be

Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
John Elway
Jim McMahon
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger

You forgot the great Norm Snead.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
So it's all over for a 11-2 team?

Correctamundo. They peaked, hit their zenith, a few weeks back. It is over. Done. They are toast. Look forward to April, and U.S. Bank Stadium in 2018. Short the Cowboys, at market. You will thank me tomorrow.

I will repost this in January, after their loss. And the world will be in awe of me, even more than they are now. Only my humility exceeds my brilliance.

John "Bud Fox" W
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Meanwhile, my thanks to the Baltimore Ravens for keeping New England from covering and bringing sanity (and 10 ATS wins) back to team Heretic. :D
 
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