ECT Neither option in Eph 3:5 is D'ist

[Interplanner]

There is no 2P2P in the Bible. There is no 'departure' from the Jews, only a departure from unbelief. Many believers were Jews at first, while the % of those who were non-Jews increased.

 

[way 2 go]

There is no 2P2P in the Bible.

there was when the new testament was written

now it is the time of the gentiles

Rom_11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

There is no 'departure' from the Jews, only a departure from unbelief. Many believers were Jews at first, while the % of those who were non-Jews increased.

yes there is a departure

Act 18:5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."


Act 28:26 "'Go to this people, and say, "You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive."
Act 28:27 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Act 28:28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

 

[Interplanner]

there was when the new testament was written

now it is the time of the gentiles

Rom_11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.



yes there is a departure

Act 18:5 When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Paul was occupied with the word, testifying to the Jews that the Christ was Jesus.
Act 18:6 And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."


Act 28:26 "'Go to this people, and say, "You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive."
Act 28:27 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'
Act 28:28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

If there was a 2 programs things going on when the NT was written it was because Judaism thought itself to be a 2nd program! There was not supposed to be! That is the impact of the NT message.

As has been discussed many times Rom 11 is not what D'ism/2P2P thinks. It is saying there has always been a partial blindness, illustrated past-present-future in the 1st paragraph of 11. It is saying as ch 9 does, that there is another Israel that did respond and will be saved (justified from sins). The quote from Isaiah is meant historically about what is going on then. There is only some episode for Israel after all the Gentiles come in if there is 2P2P, so we can't go there for circular reasons. The 'come in' is the same as the 'sun-' prefixes in Eph 2B-3A--it means to 'come in' or join to the Israel (both Jew and Gentile, 9:26) that believes.

re rejecting Israel
It does not mean that something exclusive was to be done with them; the mission goes on, with Gentiles. The Jews miss out, but the mission does not. They were always welcome to help, like Paul.

It is beliefs like yours that started anti-semitism where people default back to race and ethne lines, which the NT does not.

 

[way 2 go]

If there was a 2 programs things going on when the NT was written it was because Judaism thought itself to be a 2nd program! There was not supposed to be! That is the impact of the NT message.

:nono:

Peter and friends the circumcised

Act_10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(this happend after Paul was converted,
to show Peter that there is a new program)



Gal_2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

As has been discussed many times Rom 11 is not what D'ism/2P2P thinks. It is saying there has always been a partial blindness, illustrated past-present-future in the 1st paragraph of 11. It is saying as ch 9 does, that there is another Israel that did respond and will be saved (justified from sins). The quote from Isaiah is meant historically about what is going on then.

:nono:

God has never went to gentiles like he has now, it was supposed to be with Jews

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

re rejecting Israel
It does not mean that something exclusive was to be done with them; the mission goes on, with Gentiles. The Jews miss out, but the mission does not. They were always welcome to help, like Paul.

Paul's dispensation was unique to him

Gal_2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

It is beliefs like yours that started anti-semitism where people default back to race and ethne lines, which the NT does not.

what beliefs like mine ?

Mid Acts Dispensation

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

:nono:

Peter and friends the circumcised

Act_10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(this happend after Paul was converted,
to show Peter that there is a new program)



Gal_2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.



:nono:

God has never went to gentiles like he has now, it was supposed to be with Jews

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.



Paul's dispensation was unique to him

Gal_2:7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised


what beliefs like mine ?

Mid Acts Dispensation

One way through Jesus Christ for the Jews and the Gentiles. Faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit, and repentence.
""If then God gave the same gift to them as He gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way." When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also, God has granted repentence that leads to life."" Acts 11:17-18

 

[Interplanner]

One way through Jesus Christ for the Jews and the Gentiles. Faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit, and repentence.
""If then God gave the same gift to them as He gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way." When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also, God has granted repentence that leads to life."" Acts 11:17-18

W2Go is incorrect to say that 'it wasn't supposed to be with the Jews.' The true plan was for all mankind to hear the Gospel and believe. The initial mission work of the Gospel was supposed to be from Jews because of their background in the scriptures.

 

[way 2 go]

One way through Jesus Christ for the Jews and the Gentiles. Faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit, and repentence.
""If then God gave the same gift to them as He gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way." When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also, God has granted repentence that leads to life."" Acts 11:17-18

Jesus showed Peter gentiles were no longer unclean
and could be saved non proselyte.

it was new to them
"Then to the Gentiles also, God has granted repentence that leads to life."

 

[way 2 go]

W2Go is incorrect to say that 'it wasn't supposed to be with the Jews.' The true plan was for all mankind to hear the Gospel and believe. The initial mission work of the Gospel was supposed to be from Jews because of their background in the scriptures.

"repent for the kingdom is at hand" who's kingdom the Jews kingdom

 

[Interplanner]

"repent for the kingdom is at hand" who's kingdom the Jews kingdom

lol, it never was theirs. The expected kingdom is from Dan 4 and it is 'made without human hands.' Thank you for saying that, but we may have found the most noxious of 2P2P doctrines--that all this starts with thinking the Dan 4 kingdom is Israel as such!

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

"repent for the kingdom is at hand" who's kingdom the Jews kingdom

It's God's kingdom.
"For the grace of God appeared bringing salvation for ALL PEOPLE..., ...our great God and savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11, 13-14

 

[way 2 go]

lol, it never was theirs. The expected kingdom is from Dan 4 and it is 'made without human hands.'

oh look the new Rome :nono:
the new Babylon :nono:
the city of gentiles :nono:

the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven

Rev_21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[way 2 go]

It's God's kingdom.
"For the grace of God appeared bringing salvation for ALL PEOPLE..., ...our great God and savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:11, 13-14

Rev_21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

 

[Interplanner]

oh look the new Rome :nono:
the new Babylon :nono:
the city of gentiles :nono:

the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven

Rev_21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And that automatically means what exactly?

 

[way 2 go]

And that automatically means what exactly?

Mid Acts Dispensation 2P2P

 

[Interplanner]

It is the city that we belong to already. It was expected since Isaiah, but in Judaism they didn't know it was to be accessed through and exists 'through the Gospel' and I'm not sure D'ists know that either. They are quite literal where you can't be--like Gal 4. Although I'm not sure they even address Gal 4.

The most useless doctrines are those generated by the Rev as though it was ordinary language; they usually conflict deeply with the ordinary language of the NT about the same topic, as in the case just mentioned.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

It is the city that we belong to already.

:chuckle:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Rev_21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—

"No longer will there be anything accursed but the throne of God and the lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship Him." Revelation 22:3

His servants will be with Him there.

 

[kmoney]

I was wrong. There are two options for the attention of the 'mystery' in Eph 3:5. Grammatically, the weight falls on the prepostional phrase 'in the Gospel' (as opposed to in the Law). That is to say, it was not realized until the preaching of the apostles that the co-inheritance and membership with Israel would be through the Gospel.

But the other emphasis is no better for D'ism. That mystery would be that the co-inheriting and membership would ITSELF be the mystery, because such co-inheriting and unity would erase the future things D'ism thinks needs to happen.

After all the passage, no matter what, is saying all these things are with 'Israel.' It is not one pitted against the other, taking turns, because there has been a mystery interjection! Both are now joined. And it is the realization that the ages were waiting for.

There is nothing left for D'ism to get excited about.

I don't think I fully see what you're trying to say here but to bring up another Ephesians passage I do think that Eph 2 can make some trouble for MAD.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[kmoney]

This does not seem to be clear yet.

The mystery was not the Christian joined people. The mystery was that the joining was through the Gospel.

What do you mean that the mystery was that the joining was through the Gospel?

 

[way 2 go]

I don't think I fully see what you're trying to say here but to bring up another Ephesians passage I do think that Eph 2 can make some trouble for MAD.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Gentiles were unclean according to the law

after Jesus called Paul then he told Peter about the change for gentiles.

Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.