ECT Neither option in Eph 3:5 is D'ist

Interplanner

Well-known member
If Danoh wants to stop being criticized, he could say succinctly why my observation in this thread is mistaken. He actually did this once in 2 years about 2 months ago. It was very refreshing. He just blathers about other books and failure to quote verses, which is so lazy.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
If Danoh wants to stop being criticized, he could say succinctly why my observation in this thread is mistaken. He actually did this once in 2 years about 2 months ago. It was very refreshing. He just blathers about other books and failure to cite verses. Amateur.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Clean vs unclean. It has already been declared.

So you think Matt 15:1-20 is about the Gentiles and Jews being one? I'm not really seeing it. Are you saying that after Jesus explained that then the disciples should have known that Jews and Gentiles would be one? Or only that in hindsight we can look back on those words and understand a larger meaning behind it?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The change of ceremonial, ritual and dietary law does open up social contact! He did indicate that he was joining believers from Israel to a larger flock...

I thought this was about whether clean vs unclean had been discussed before Acts 9.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The change of ceremonial, ritual and dietary law does open up social contact!
Jesus was talking about traditions not dietary law

Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

He did indicate that he was joining believers from Israel to a larger flock...
no

I thought this was about whether clean vs unclean had been discussed before Acts 9.
not talking about unclean dishes
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
There is no difference about dietary and traditions sometimes...

Yes, he mentioned a larger flock, besides the fact that he was announced as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (world might poss. be land of Israel, but he reaches beyond all the time).

Peter still mentioned that purified hearts were what mattered to God when dealing with the foods in Acts 9; which echoes what Jesus said; it is not what goes in.
 

Danoh

New member
There is no difference about dietary and traditions sometimes...

Yes, he mentioned a larger flock, besides the fact that he was announced as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (world might poss. be land of Israel, but he reaches beyond all the time).

Peter still mentioned that purified hearts were what mattered to God when dealing with the foods in Acts 9; which echoes what Jesus said; it is not what goes in.

Try taking Him at HIS Word...Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ezekiel 33:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. 34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

He was referring to His uniting Jacob's then divided seed into one again: the lost sheep of the house of Israel with the the balance of their 12 tribes they were then ended divided from.

He was asserting He is the good shephard Who was Prophesied would "restore again the kingdom to Israel."


Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Yeah, I know; it does not fit your erroneous paradigm.

As for your asserting you have read Ephesians many times, so what; with the right reading schedule anyone can read the entire Bible once a month, or twelve times a year.

Besides, Ephesians does not stand alone.

It builds on Paul's writings both prior to, and after Ephesians.

And it takes years going over his writings collectively as well as repeatedly to begin to see some of its more complex connections.

While you are at the hare's finish line, your books based reasoning read by you into the passages, this turtle has been gradually plowing through Genesis thru Revelation in light of Romans thru Philemon.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Try taking Him at HIS Word...Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ezekiel 33:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. 34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD. 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.

He was referring to His uniting Jacob's then divided seed into one again: the lost sheep of the house of Israel with the the balance of their 12 tribes they were then ended divided from.

He was asserting He is the good shephard Who was Prophesied would "restore again the kingdom to Israel."


Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Yeah, I know; it does not fit your erroneous paradigm.

As for your asserting you have read Ephesians many times, so what; with the right reading schedule anyone can read the entire Bible once a month, or twelve times a year.

Besides, Ephesians does not stand alone.

It builds on Paul's writings both prior to, and after Ephesians.

And it takes years going over his writings collectively as well as repeatedly to begin to see some of its more complex connections.

While you are at the hare's finish line, your books based reasoning read by you into the passages, this turtle has been gradually plowing through Genesis thru Revelation in light of Romans thru Philemon.



Funny how that divided Judah is not what the apostles said or how they use those passages. Rom 9:24 mainly. You just wrote off the mission of God which is something MADism and 2P2P will never seem to get.

You can't blow of Eph 3:6 like that. You're just dismissing it because it is not your pet theory. Eph 3:6 is my pet theory. What happened in Christ fulfilled all that the prophets had spoken about reaching the nations and giving them the blessings of forgiveness.

When you get to Acts 5, you have the apostles message condensed as far as they ever would do. the Princes exaltation is so that repentance and forgiveness of sins would be given to Israel. NO MENTION OF A KINGDOM OR ANYTHING ACCESSORY TO THAT. Last I checked that forgiveness of their sins was the same as mine; it is the purpose of the Messiah, none of this good shepherd with divided Israel flock in a kingdom like the old days hooshnoggle.

You should take eph 3:6 as it says. Likewise Acts 5:31. Or 13:33. You disqualify yourself by being admittedly too complicated and not taking them plainly. You inflict people with your systems of views from outside sources which you hypocritically tear the plain passages down with.

That's why you never just says Eph 3:6 (circulated to most of his groups) is the final.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Bumped for Tam and co. Because a pair of separated programs is not what the NT is about, even if you thought the Eph 3--Col 1--Rom 16 mystery was the inclusion of the nations (which is not the case.).
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Bumped for Tam so she can see a counter to her understanding of Eph 3:6. It truly does burn the bridge D'ism thinks it can cross.

The remarks by Danoh just above show that the same 2P2P in D'ism is still in MAD, which is its mistake. There is no outstanding need for Israel's tribe reunification--it was just a picture. There is no need for theocracy restoration--it was just a picture. Etc., on all these Judaic things that they "need" to happen because of the 2P2P infection. The Reality is in Christ.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The Luke 1 claim is answered in Rom 1. why can you not see this? The resurrection ITSELF declared Christ to be that Son of David, changing everything about how we read the last link of OT prophecy--Zechariah's song. Rom 1 says the resurrection declared this. You see? It is not a question of which commentator says this or that, because the resurrection made the final statement.

Romans ends in a similar way. It is not that there was a certain Scripture that declared that the nations were coming in, over which we might squabble. God just up and brought them in. That event (protracted over many years of course) is how the OT is finally to be read. It is a declaration in itself. It is what the OT passages were saying now in the most authoritative explanation possible: an act of God.

As you said Eph 3 does not stand by itself; it stands with Rom 16: the way that the nations were to enter God's redeemed Israel was through the Gospel, a channel which was not known to be coming before. In the past, they thought it was all to happen at the temple in Jerusalem while reading the law and worshiping at the altar...

Which is why those kinds of things are always introduced in D'ism as needing to happen at some point, usually the 1000 years--the collection spot for all literal prophecy left dangling.
 

Danoh

New member
The Luke 1 claim is answered in Rom 1. why can you not see this? The resurrection ITSELF declared Christ to be that Son of David, changing everything about how we read the last link of OT prophecy--Zechariah's song. Rom 1 says the resurrection declared this. You see? It is not a question of which commentator says this or that, because the resurrection made the final statement.

Romans ends in a similar way. It is not that there was a certain Scripture that declared that the nations were coming in, over which we might squabble. God just up and brought them in. That event (protracted over many years of course) is how the OT is finally to be read. It is a declaration in itself. It is what the OT passages were saying now in the most authoritative explanation possible: an act of God.

As you said Eph 3 does not stand by itself; it stands with Rom 16: the way that the nations were to enter God's redeemed Israel was through the Gospel, a channel which was not known to be coming before. In the past, they thought it was all to happen at the temple in Jerusalem while reading the law and worshiping at the altar...

Which is why those kinds of things are always introduced in D'ism as needing to happen at some point, usually the 1000 years--the collection spot for all literal prophecy left dangling.

Lol - for the umpteenth time - you need to keep in mind that, as with you and yours, MADs do not all hold to a same understanding on some things.

Thus, you need to be clear in what you attempt to address and as to who :chuckle:
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Lol - for the umpteenth time - you need to keep in mind that, as with you and yours, MADs do not all hold to a same understanding on some things.

Thus, you need to be clear in what you attempt to address and as to who :chuckle:



Buy they are so close that you can't give the distinct definition of Paul's apostleship that will set it all off and make it all clear. There is still the attempt to protect 2P2P.
 
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