ECT Neither option in Eph 3:5 is D'ist

[Interplanner]

The point of the OP was that even if 'through the Gospel' were not the anchoring concept of 3:6, the thing is still saying that there is a resolved inclusion of qualified Jews and Gentiles together, not an ALTERNATING plan between the ethnes, as D'ism says.

 

[way 2 go]

The mystery is not the inheritance or unity with Israel. It is that it is THROUGH THE GOSPEL.

Eph 3:6 that the nations should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partaker of His promise in Christ through the gospel.

1. that the nations should be fellow heirs
2. and of the same body
3. and partaker of His promise in Christ through the gospel.




can you show Jesus or Peter declaring gentiles
no longer enemies or clean
before this
Act 10:15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has made clean, you do not call common.

 

[kmoney]

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

which is what he told peter

Act 10:15 And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common."

do you agree with the following:

both one one is the Circumcised and uncircumcised now one

wall of partition is clean vs unclean

between us- us is the Circumcised and uncircumcised


you say we became one at the cross, right?

I think that's what Paul says. How would you interpret it? Paul actually refers to the cross in verse 16 and he refers to blood and flesh in others. So if you think we become one in mid-Acts, what do you think Paul is describing?

I say it happened when he called Paul to send to the gentiles .

can you show Jesus or Peter declaring gentiles
no longer enemies or clean
before this
Act 10:15 And the voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has made clean, you do not call common.

No. At least I can't think of anything right now.

 

[Interplanner]

I think that's what Paul says. How would you interpret it? Paul actually refers to the cross in verse 16 and he refers to blood and flesh in others. So if you think we become one in mid-Acts, what do you think Paul is describing?


No. At least I can't think of anything right now.

Mt 15A!

 

[Clete]

I was wrong. There are two options for the attention of the 'mystery' in Eph 3:5. Grammatically, the weight falls on the prepostional phrase 'in the Gospel' (as opposed to in the Law). That is to say, it was not realized until the preaching of the apostles that the co-inheritance and membership with Israel would be through the Gospel.

But the other emphasis is no better for D'ism. That mystery would be that the co-inheriting and membership would ITSELF be the mystery, because such co-inheriting and unity would erase the future things D'ism thinks needs to happen.

After all the passage, no matter what, is saying all these things are with 'Israel.' It is not one pitted against the other, taking turns, because there has been a mystery interjection! Both are now joined. And it is the realization that the ages were waiting for.

There is nothing left for D'ism to get excited about.

These sort of arguments always amuse me.

Paul would never have been an apostle in the first place if Dispensationalism is false. If everything is just the next phase of the same gospel that Jesus and the Twelve preached then would never have been any need for Paul to exist as an apostle and biblical author. The Twelve had received the Holy Spirit and had been given the Great Commission by Christ Himself.

Israel:
12 Tribes
12 Apostles who will sit on 12 thrones (Matt. 19)
12,000 saved from each of the 12 tribes (Rev. 7)
The walls of the New Jerusalem are measured at 144 cubits (12 x 12)(Rev 21:16).
The New City is also 12,000 furlongs squared (Rev 21:16).
There are 12 precious stones that will be used as the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:19-20).
The wall of the city had 12 foundations with the 12 names of the apostles on each one (Rev 21:14).
Twelve thousand will be taken from the earth so that they may serve the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (Rev 14:1-5).
The high priest’s breastplate had 12 precious stones embedded within them.
Jesus very first words were spoken at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).


NOT THIRTEEN!!!!


The mere fact that you bring up Paul defeats your argument before you make it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Interplanner]

These sort of arguments always amuse me.

Paul would never have been an apostle in the first place if Dispensationalism is false. If everything is just the next phase of the same gospel that Jesus and the Twelve preached then would never have been any need for Paul to exist as an apostle and biblical author. The Twelve had received the Holy Spirit and had been given the Great Commission by Christ Himself.

Israel:
12 Tribes
12 Apostles who will sit on 12 thrones (Matt. 19)
12,000 saved from each of the 12 tribes (Rev. 7)
The walls of the New Jerusalem are measured at 144 cubits (12 x 12)(Rev 21:16).
The New City is also 12,000 furlongs squared (Rev 21:16).
There are 12 precious stones that will be used as the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:19-20).
The wall of the city had 12 foundations with the 12 names of the apostles on each one (Rev 21:14).
Twelve thousand will be taken from the earth so that they may serve the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (Rev 14:1-5).
The high priest’s breastplate had 12 precious stones embedded within them.
Jesus very first words were spoken at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).


NOT THIRTEEN!!!!


The mere fact that you bring up Paul defeats your argument before you make it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

numerology takes a far back seat to the kind of statement Paul is making in those verses. The grammar emphasis falls on 'through the Gospel.' There is no way around that.

But it doesn't matter! (To D'ism; D'ism is still way behind). The result is not a separated community! It's so simple. It is a joined community in what Christ has done. Not by gaining an inside understanding of a cubed city, which is supposed to be treated symbolic, anyway.

re Paul individually: there is always need for God to snatch an individual who is extremely evil and turn them around.

re Paul theologically: you don't understand Gal 3:17. Who was voiding and switching the promise and putting the Law in its place? Not now. Back then! Who?

 

[Clete]

numerology takes a far back seat to the kind of statement Paul is making in those verses. The grammar emphasis falls on 'through the Gospel.' There is no way around that.

But it doesn't matter! (To D'ism; D'ism is still way behind). The result is not a separated community! It's so simple. It is a joined community in what Christ has done. Not by gaining an inside understanding of a cubed city, which is supposed to be treated symbolic, anyway.

re Paul individually: there is always need for God to snatch an individual who is extremely evil and turn them around.

re Paul theologically: you don't understand Gal 3:17. Who was voiding and switching the promise and putting the Law in its place? Not now. Back then! Who?

You either missed or ignored the point.

Try again - or don't. I don't care which.

 

[Danoh]

You either missed or ignored the point.

Try again - or don't. I don't care which.

And never mind that Paul qualifies there, as elsewhere in his writings, WHAT gospel he is referring to....

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Notice..."the gospel:"

Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Note also that Paul also relates that "God...created all things by Jesus Christ" and then relates that the revelation of this unsearchable mystery concerns said things somehow:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The revelation of this mystery that Paul is preaching among the Gentiles has to do with these principalities and powers in heavenly places - they were now being informed of this mystery.

Paul is calling this mystery he is preaching among the gentiles the gospel he is preaching among them.

While fools continue to conclude their supposed 2P2P notions, these passages point to another aspect of God's plan and purpose - this one an heavenly one - that Paul calls the gospel he is preaching among the Gentiles.

This is why the invention of Preterism - having read right past this other aspect of God's Two-Fold Plan and Purpose: Prophecy (The Earth) and Mystery (The Heavenly) having read right past the Mystery aspect of God's Two-Fold Purpose, the fools ended up seeing holes in Matthew 24 that are not really there.

Holes they then also had to solve for by their same, own fool reasoning.

Holes that ignorance of this mystery that Paul preached among the Gentiles ends one up seeing.

So, off they went to the wisdom of men - secular history, with its equally endless speculations...

The Three Stooges attempting to solve for the sinking row boat they themselves caused to begin to sink.

Attempting to solve for said sinking now, by drilling holes in the boat.

Preterism and its "doing the history" clowns - a circus act if there was one.

The issue is God's Two-Fold Purpose concerning positions of authority over BOTH the Earth, and Heaven...

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

One is...

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The other is...

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

One is...

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

And...

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The other is...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Why the PLANNED interruption of His Plan and Purpose as to the Earth?

Becuase before this is possible - "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

...this must first be solved for...

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Clete]

The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Ephesians 3:5 which Interplanner twists into some wacky argument against dispensationalism comes right after Ephesians 3:1-4!

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),​

I mean, how much more explicit can you get? Anyone who isn't a dispensationalist simply doesn't believe that what Paul wrote in the bible is true. It's no more complicated than that.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Danoh]

The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Ephesians 3:5 which Interplanner twists into some wacky argument against dispensationalism comes right after Ephesians 3:1-4!

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),​

I mean, how much more explicit can you get? Anyone who isn't a dispensationalist simply doesn't believe that what Paul wrote in the bible is true. It's no more complicated than that.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yeah; the guy is clearly too read up in his endless books supposedly "about" these issues.

Would that he put them away and actually bother with the Scripture.

He barely ever even posts a verse.

He'll post his notions, and his endless books "about" though.

 

[Interplanner]

You either missed or ignored the point.

Try again - or don't. I don't care which.

That is because you did not speak to Eph 3:5-6. I was trying to get you to do so.

 

[Interplanner]

Yeah; the guy is clearly too read up in his endless books supposedly "about" these issues.

Would that he put them away and actually bother with the Scripture.

He barely ever even posts a verse.

He'll post his notions, and his endless books "about" though.

Danoh is a crock again about me. Maybe not the bible but since he is so worthless on me I don't care what he says about the Bible.

There is a new administration, relative to what Judaism thought was there. That is what has to be detangled for those coming to the Gospel from Judaism. it is best done in Gal 3 (which by the way, Danoh, is a reference to some 25 verses, so just shut up, would you?) 3:17 shows what was knotted up and misunderstood in Judaism, and therefore in Paul, and when he got that sorted out, he had the Gospel.

Judaism thought the messianic age would happen through the Law, which is why they have the temperament that they do ever since the IT period. But also why they missed the meaning of Christ.

The OP is showing that even if a person misses the stress on 'through the Gospel' which is found in the grammars, it may not matter! The resolved unity is still the same inheritance, body, community with an 'Israel' that is missed if we are literal or stuck in Judaism. There is another Israel now and it is in Christ and is fulfilled in Christ.

Finally, the Eph verse you quoted is only meant to contrast what was before the Gospel with what is now there, only two ages. There are no more 'ages' or 'dispensations' in mind. In Gal 4, the previous is referred to by such English terms as 'minority' 'childhood' 'childtraining' whereas now we are of-age sons.

Btw, Danoh, referring to Gal 4 is about 30 verses, so just shut up. You are false and then false again.

 

[Danoh]

Danoh is a crock again about me. Maybe not the bible but since he is so worthless on me I don't care what he says about the Bible.

There is a new administration, relative to what Judaism thought was there. That is what has to be detangled for those coming to the Gospel from Judaism. it is best done in Gal 3 (which by the way, Danoh, is a reference to some 25 verses, so just shut up, would you?) 3:17 shows what was knotted up and misunderstood in Judaism, and therefore in Paul, and when he got that sorted out, he had the Gospel.

Judaism thought the messianic age would happen through the Law, which is why they have the temperament that they do ever since the IT period. But also why they missed the meaning of Christ.

The OP is showing that even if a person misses the stress on 'through the Gospel' which is found in the grammars, it may not matter! The resolved unity is still the same inheritance, body, community with an 'Israel' that is missed if we are literal or stuck in Judaism. There is another Israel now and it is in Christ and is fulfilled in Christ.

Finally, the Eph verse you quoted is only meant to contrast what was before the Gospel with what is now there, only two ages. There are no more 'ages' or 'dispensations' in mind. In Gal 4, the previous is referred to by such English terms as 'minority' 'childhood' 'childtraining' whereas now we are of-age sons.

Btw, Danoh, referring to Gal 4 is about 30 verses, so just shut up. You are false and then false again.

:rotfl:

 

[Clete]

That is because you did not speak to Eph 3:5-6. I was trying to get you to do so.

Yes I did. You just want to pretend somehow that Paul didn't write it.

 

[Interplanner]

These sort of arguments always amuse me.

Paul would never have been an apostle in the first place if Dispensationalism is false. If everything is just the next phase of the same gospel that Jesus and the Twelve preached then would never have been any need for Paul to exist as an apostle and biblical author. The Twelve had received the Holy Spirit and had been given the Great Commission by Christ Himself.

Israel:
12 Tribes
12 Apostles who will sit on 12 thrones (Matt. 19)
12,000 saved from each of the 12 tribes (Rev. 7)
The walls of the New Jerusalem are measured at 144 cubits (12 x 12)(Rev 21:16).
The New City is also 12,000 furlongs squared (Rev 21:16).
There are 12 precious stones that will be used as the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:19-20).
The wall of the city had 12 foundations with the 12 names of the apostles on each one (Rev 21:14).
Twelve thousand will be taken from the earth so that they may serve the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ (Rev 14:1-5).
The high priest’s breastplate had 12 precious stones embedded within them.
Jesus very first words were spoken at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).


NOT THIRTEEN!!!!


The mere fact that you bring up Paul defeats your argument before you make it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,
I went back to this. Is this supposed to respond to what I said about 3:5-6? I don't see how. Also there is no logical connection whatsoever between your validation of D'ism and the 12 tribes or 12s listings.

The original assertion was that if you don't see 'through the Gospel' as the grammatical anchor of v6, you can still see that Paul was not setting up or preserving separate outcomes for Israel! Instead, like all other places, it is about the common community. The Greek prefix sun- has been used three times to emphasize this: heirs together, sharers together, etc.

None of this would exist without the complete explanation of the promise to Israel and its fulfillment in Gal 3 or, shorter, Acts 13's sermon's conclusion.

All of this was embedded in the prophets as the passage says and Lk 24. It was expected. The method however, was not. Judaism did not think this would be considered fulfilled through the Gospel event. That was hidden, completely foreign. They thought (and had missionaries) that it was through obedience to the law. This resolves the literal-figurative debate. The answer is 'in Christ' so long as you mean in a way that Christ's missionaries could go use as speakers and teachers throughout the world. That is why we have 2500 uses of the OT in the NT letters.

It never was another Gospel; it's just that it needed to be declared to the most encrusted and misconceived of Israel's leaders--attempting to preserve another captivity by a very purified system of obedience to the Law.

btw, for Danoh, that's about 50 verses, so please shut up all your comments unless you are willing to admit your worthless remarks on that. I certainly won't be reading anything you have unless you admit that.

The more I quote of the NT, the more Danoh calls it 'other books.' Something bizarre going on in that mind.

 

[Danoh]

Interplanner talks "about" a verse and sees that as quoting it.

Fact is only recently has he even cited any Scripturual references with the frequency he has been citing them lately.

And he often cites the wrong passage reference.

Obviously, he is not as familiar with Scripture as he believes himself to be.

And yet, he goes on and on about how one MADist or another, is not familiar with this or that passage.

If MAD is anything, it is very heavy in emphasis on the passages.

It is that that resulted in the Mid-Acts Perspective.

It is that that allows in the continued refinement of one's understanding.

It is why the MADist often quotes so much Scripture - because he is more than a little familiar with Genesis through Revelation.

None of which amounts to much on its own, or absent of the Romans thru Philemon Distinctive that MAD came to through all that time, not in endless books "about" rather, in The Book (Scripture) itself.

Fact is, Interplanner is reading all he has read "about" in his endless books "about" together with the faulty approach in reasoning that has resulted in, into the passages.

He continues to remain clueless that the Apostle Paul identifies "the gospel" he mentions in Ephesians 3, as "the gospel: whereof I was made a minister" etc.

Interplanner merely sees the typical "one size fits all" that so many books based "students" see in their same books based ignorance, whenever they too see the phrase "the gospel."

It is why he continues to fail to connect the dots whenever a MADist like RD, or Clete, Tambora, Steko, et al, point out what they point out.

Long or short, JohnW, or STP, it goes right past the likes of this self-styled "Interplanner."

More like Interloper.

I do enjoy his constant assertion that he is ignoring my posts, though :chuckle:

 

[kmoney]

Mt 15A!

I'm not seeing it. Can you explain?

 

[Interplanner]

I'm not seeing it. Can you explain?

Clean vs unclean. It has already been declared.

 

[Interplanner]

I only answer Danoh's posts for others, not for him. He doesn't even understand the concept of 25 verses.

The fact that MAD exists is proof that he spends more time in books than I do because its where both the MA and D came from.

The comment about the Gospel is too foolish to write out but he has. There are an infinite number of ways of modifying the Gospel of the righteousness that is in Christ without changing it. If he says 'here it the Gospel that I preached to you' that is of course the same gospel as always but it was preached to that group. This is the dim thinking that thought there were 2 in Gal 2.

There is a MAD debate in another thread about when the church began or when Paul ministry began or when ministry to Gentiles began. In two years, I've never understood what Danoh was trying to distinguish, but it was immediately clear, although bogus, in the other debate.

The foremost feature of MAD is that it is spending too much time in its own thoughts and systems than in segments or chapters that are self-commentaries. That is probably because when I refer to them there is a knucklehead here who calls that both 'out of context' and 'other books' and 'failure to use verses.'

Look for a moment at the other member here, saying that the 'answer' to what Eph 3:6 is saying is a list of numerology examples about 12. That seems to be the high point in the logic of MAD.

 

[Interplanner]

The business of answering a fool is always a risk as the pair of Proverbs about it says. I'm just trying to keep other members clear of the rancidity of thought found in Danoh's posts.