ECT Neither option in Eph 3:5 is D'ist

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
I was wrong. There are two options for the attention of the 'mystery' in Eph 3:5. Grammatically, the weight falls on the prepostional phrase 'in the Gospel' (as opposed to in the Law). That is to say, it was not realized until the preaching of the apostles that the co-inheritance and membership with Israel would be through the Gospel.

But the other emphasis is no better for D'ism. That mystery would be that the co-inheriting and membership would ITSELF be the mystery, because such co-inheriting and unity would erase the future things D'ism thinks needs to happen.

After all the passage, no matter what, is saying all these things are with 'Israel.' It is not one pitted against the other, taking turns, because there has been a mystery interjection! Both are now joined. And it is the realization that the ages were waiting for.

There is nothing left for D'ism to get excited about.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Ephesians 2 is written in light of much more than a Greek tense here, a mood there.

In light of Romans 1:18-3:20, for example.

In which Israel as a commonwealth (access) is no more - as both Jew and Gentile have been concluded "under sin" or transgression.

As with Romans 3:21's "But now," Ephesians 2: 13's "But now" is in light of that.

Ephesians 2: 11-12 are Israel's former access. Are the Gentiles former lack of access.

They are both Israel's and the Gentiles "time past" status.

Verse 13's "But now" is this side of both having been concluded "under sin" or in transgression.

Romans 3:21's "But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law" that Israel's commonwealth was a part of.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Danoh said:
Ephesians 2 is written in light of much more than a Greek tense here, a mood there.

In light of Romans 1:18-3:20, for example.

In which Israel as a commonwealth (access) is no more - as both Jew and Gentile have been concluded "under sin" or transgression.

As with Romans 3:21's "But now," Ephesians 2: 13's "But now" is in light of that.

Ephesians 2: 11-12 are Israel's former access. Are the Gentiles former lack of access.

They are both Israel's and the Gentiles "time past" status.

Verse 13's "But now" is this side of both having been concluded "under sin" or in transgression.

Romans 3:21's "But now the righteousness of God WITHOUT the Law" that Israel's commonwealth was a part of.
Click to expand...


OK...so there is no conflict. D'ist is wasted by Eph 3:5.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Fair enough. Its hobby of distinguishing the groups collapses under the weight of the stones God has laid for his living temple with living sacrifices.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
. D'ist is wasted by Eph 3:5.
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don't see it :sherlock:

Eph 3:4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
There are only 2 things D'ism can say are mysterious here, both of which conflict with it centrally:

1, the vehicle. The vehicle that joins is the Gospel; the grammar puts all the weight on that phrase. The various joinings mentioned are not a mystery in the OT, as D'ism says, only the vehicle.

2, the mystery was the church in place of Israel, but all the expressions and the 'separations-now-resolved-in-Christ' say nothing about in place of. It is all about joinings and unity in Christ.

These mean there is no value or need for the existence of D'ism. It has concocted a "solution" to the Bible about questions that don't exist or are not resolveable.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
This does not seem to be clear yet.

The mystery was not the Christian joined people. The mystery was that the joining was through the Gospel.

Even if you don't accept that grammatical conclusion about v5, you (if you are D'ist) are still stuck with the joining! It is not about interrupting or inter posing 2P2P. And this joining is the culmination of the ages.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
This does not seem to be clear yet.

The mystery was not the Christian joined people. The mystery was that the joining was through the Gospel.
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at least what you said was clear

but that is not what verse 6 says

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Even if you don't accept that grammatical conclusion about v5, you (if you are D'ist) are still stuck with the joining! It is not about interrupting or inter posing 2P2P. And this joining is the culmination of the ages.
Click to expand...

seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25

Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Luk 13:9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

we are saved apart from them or they join our churches (with exceptions).
churches not synagogues .
 
1Mind1Spirit

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
way 2 go said:
at least what you said was clear

but that is not what verse 6 says

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.



seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25

Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Luk 13:9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

we are saved apart from them or they join our churches (with exceptions).
churches not synagogues .
Click to expand...

Yet according to you they don't need to.:kookoo:

According to you, hey, it's just a different kingdom, no sweat, I just happen to think mine is better. :wazzup:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
way 2 go said:
at least what you said was clear

but that is not what verse 6 says

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.



seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25

Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Luk 13:9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

we are saved apart from them or they join our churches (with exceptions).
churches not synagogues .
Click to expand...



aggg. so sorry; I meant 3:6 all this time.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
way 2 go said:
at least what you said was clear

but that is not what verse 6 says

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.



seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25

Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Luk 13:9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

we are saved apart from them or they join our churches (with exceptions).
churches not synagogues .
Click to expand...


re: seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25


but in eph 2-3, there is an Israel to belong to that is rooted in the prophets but is not the current nation. It is the ethne that works in God's mission.
 
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way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
re: seriously look around, we didn't join the Jews they lost there special status
Rom 11:11 until Rom 11:25


but in eph 2-3, there is an Israel to belong to that is rooted in the prophets but is not the current nation. It is the ethne that works in God's mission.
Click to expand...

rooted in which prophets ?
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
I think the highest % of NT quotes of OT on this is from Isaiah, but that is a subquestion to the overall study of how the NT uses the OT. But it is there. After all, Paul kept saying it is embedded there. If we go with Rom 9B, it is 50% Hosea, and 50% Isaiah.
 
way 2 go

way 2 go

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
I think the highest % of NT quotes of OT on this is from Isaiah, but that is a subquestion to the overall study of how the NT uses the OT. But it is there. After all, Paul kept saying it is embedded there. If we go with Rom 9B, it is 50% Hosea, and 50% Isaiah.
Click to expand...


still don't see it :sherlock:


I still see a departure from Jews to gentiles ,
from circumcision to uncircumcised, from law to no law, from Peter to Paul


All you have is Paul explaining what has happened the new dispensation .
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Read Eph 2B-3A 10x and call me in the morning. It is sometimes called the 'unifying' letter because of the 7 ones in ch 4. But clearly 2B-3A is part of that. There is no switching-over from one group/program/people to another, but a solidifying and unifying of all believing people in Christ.

Keep in mind that it was the widest-spread circular as far as we know; 1:1 is blank for the destination in the oldest copies, so it went to several groups.
 
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