Rational thought process. I think I did say that I do believe in the twelve step recovery program of AA. That I believe is a true religion.
My Religion
- Thread starter Guyver
- Start date
- Status
Rational thought process. I think I did say that I do believe in the twelve step recovery program of AA. That I believe is a true religion.
bibleverse2
New member
Note that dark or evil forces do exist which are not flesh and blood like humans are (Ephesians 6:12).
--
Ecclesiastes 12:1 simply means that old people can have a hard time because of physical frailties.
--
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--
Note that dead people can be sent to hell (Luke 12:5).
Because of sin (Romans 6:23).
No, for there is no reincarnation (Hebrews 9:27).
That's it?
Of all the things I said in my post, you come back with "I do believe in the twelve step recovery program of AA."?
Are you trying to waste everyone's time here or what?
Why do you think God made a world of death?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
What?! You mean like you just did by asking such a silly question?
You asked me a question, I answered it. I told you why truth supersedes belief, you said nothing. You asked me how I falsified the world's religions, I answered. I guess you're peeved because I didn't argue your logical axioms claims.
You believe someone other than God made the world then.
I don't think God made a world of death, I know he did by observation. That is, if there is a God who made the universe. Everything dies in this world. Therefore God made a world of death. But, to be more accurate, it should be said that God made of world of life and death because a thing can only die if it has lived. So, God made a world where all living things live, then die.
But in that life is the constant struggle for survival and reproduction. From the birds, and the bees, to every other living thing all the way down to the smallest microorganisms, everything fights to stay alive and reproduce, or it just dies.
That is why.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
When I observe the world, I see it teeming with life.
I see the world as God made it, a world teeming with life.
Maybe there's something amiss with the way you observe things. :think:
I'm not peeved!
Sheesh you people have thin skin! Take a chill pill already.
I was simply expecting something more substantive than a two word answer. If that's all you're capable of then this is going to be a waste of time. We'll see in short order....
They aren't "my claims"!
If you didn't simply lie in your previous post and you actually did falsify all of the world's religions through a rational thought process, then you used those so called claims of mine to do it. They are only the basic building blocks of every syllable of intelligible discourse that has ever occurred. Everything from "Let there be light." to this sentence you're reading right now and every other intelligible thing anyone ever said before or will say after, is built upon those three laws of reason. The very words of your facile answer to my question is a direct affirmation of them.
You claim to believe in the twelve step program which acknowledges the existence of a higher power (step 2). Do you believe in a "higher power"? If so, what rational thought process brought you to that conclusion?
Clete
So, in other words.....if I don't sufficiently dazzle you with brilliance, you will consider your participation in this thread a waste of your time. hmmmn. OK.
Then you should have cited your source. It is reasonable for me to assume you were just making that up since you didn't provide a source for me to evaluate....isn't it?
OK....let's back up a minute here. First of all, I should not have claimed to falsify all the world's religions, and you should not have asked me if I did. Religions don't lend themselves to falsification since they are not scientific theories. I could have explained more thoroughly why I don't accept any religions of the world, but I didn't. The religions of the world exist and are believed by those who practice.....so in that sense they are true. Whether or not the claims these various religions make are true or not is something that can be considered, and should be. That is what I have done to some degree, and that's why I feel confident in the decision I have made to reject all the religions of the world. As I have stated before many times in this thread, if a person is made better by the practice of their religion (as long as it harms no person or animal) then I support their practice of faith.....for THEM - not for me.
I do not affirm or reject these statements at this time.
Yes, I do claim that, and yes I do affirm a Higher Power. I don't know why you think it's necessary to ask me about the rational thought process that led me to that decision....so I'll just skip that part and tell you that I believe in it because of personal experience.
I don't need dazzled but substantive responses are necessary.
I have to cite the source of the laws of reason?
You claim to have falsified all the religions of the world by means of a rational thought process and you're not familiar with the law of identity?
These laws of have been around for literally thousands of years but if you need something more than my word for it, I invite you to read the following paper...
The Nature & Necessity of Logic by Craig S. Hawkins
I used your own words when I asked the question so don't start telling me what I shouldn't have asked.
More evidence that you haven't actually falsified a single religion from anywhere in the world at all, most especially not in any sort of rational manner.
The fact is that most regions are very easily falsified when you subject their claims to the laws of reason. It's difficult to persuade anyone away from a religion that they believe in with sound reason but that's an entirely different issue. As you said yourself, truth supersedes belief and whether anyone chooses to acknowledge it or not, if something is shown to be irrational it has been falsified.
Well, like you said, truth supersedes belief. Not every religion can be true. In fact, only one of them can be. The question is whether you've educated yourself enough to discover which it is and why.
So a moment ago you were talking about how you should not have claimed to have falsified all the world's religions and now you seem to making the claim again.
So which is it? Have you falsified them or not?
How thoughtful of you.
That sentence could not have been written without them nor could you read this sentence in response to it. There is no such thing as an intelligible thought that does not utilize the law of identity or one of it's corollaries.
In fact, your failure to affirm them is itself irrational. You are, in effect, using the laws of reason to express doubt about the laws of reason.
I am merely following the path you've laid down.
It is necessary to ask because you claim to have falsified at least some significant portion of the world's religions, several of which do little more than simply acknowledge the existence of a higher power, via a rational thought process.
It therefore stands to reason that you put the twelve step's higher power to a similar test that it somehow managed to pass. I want to know what that test looked like. What questions did you ask, what were the answers to those questions and how did you get those answers? Just how is it that, of all the gods men worship, it's the twelve step's higher power survived your rational thought process when so many hundreds of others failed?
Clete
Since I've never even heard of them....yes....I think you should have. Doing a search, I find this - "The laws of thought are fundamental axiomatic rules upon which rational discourse itself is often considered to be based. The formulation and clarification of such rules have a long tradition in the history of philosophy and logic. Generally they are taken as laws that guide and underlie everyone's thinking, thoughts, expressions, discussions, etc. However, such classical ideas are often questioned or rejected in more recent developments, such as intuitionistic logic, dialetheism and fuzzy logic."
Link
No, as I mentioned earlier - religions aren't falsifiable. So, I do not make that claim. No, I am not familiar with the law of identity and have never heard of it. If it is anything like the "laws of reason" that you mentioned before, then it is the stuff of philosophy and logic.
OK....that's better. Now we actually have something to discuss. It's got some good information, but it is from an apologetics ministry, so it's not actually science. It speaks of people being made in God's image and the value of the human mind and intellect. Yet, God cannot be shown to actually exist.....so again.....we are not talking science here.
This sentence reminds me that I find the tone of your post insulting to a small degree, and definitely accusatory/confrontational. You don't know me, I don't know you. If you wish to dialog, I'd appreciate it if you could at least be somewhat polite or respectful.
As I have now stated more than once, I do not claim to have falsified something that cannot be falsified. So....is that what you're looking for? You seem to have a problem with the idea that someone could call your religion false?
Beliefs are not necessarily rational to begin with. So, you could just as easily claim that believing is irrational.
Yes, truth supersedes belief and I told you why. Do you not accept my claim? You said not every religion can be true, only one of them can. You forgot to add that they could all be false. What makes you think that all relgions cannot be true but only one can? Are you attempting to argue that only YOUR religion is true?
A religion is only as true as someone believes it to be. That's the nature of religion.
Since religions are only true in the sense I described before, and they are not scientific theories, I don't believe that they can be falsified. Beliefs are not generally something that can be tested by science, but science can certainly acknowledge that they exist.
I disagree.
Because it actually works.
As I told you before, I came to believe in the twelve steps because of personal experience. I don't wish to discuss AA in this thread, or at all except in private. If you would like to learn more about it, you may attend group as an observer/guest, you may read the book for yourself, or do some study of it on your own.
6days
New member
We believe the evidence shows divine revelation. Reasons include prophecy fulfilled...scientific accuracy.... painfully honest...unique message of salvation....geographical accuracy...unique in unity (Over 40 authors...over 1500years creating one cohesive story)… "The Bible Describes Reality Better Than Any Other Religion Or Worldview
It tells us why the universe has laws, design, order, complexity, simplicity, elegance, symmetry and beauty – because there is a great and wise and powerful Designer. It tells us why there is beauty, love, wisdom, justice, truth and personality."https://www.shema.com/ten-evidences-that-demonstrate-that-the-bible-is-the-divinely-inspired-word-of-god-272/
There is no possible way of questioning or rejecting them without using them to do it. It is the very definition of a self-defeating endeavor.
Of course they are! Why wouldn't they be?
There many some religions that aren't but anything what is unfalsifiable is irrational anyway and would have been rejected by your "rational thought process" by which you claim to have rejected the world's religions.
Christianity is an excellent example of a totally falsifiable religion. It is falsifiable in several ways but perhaps the most important is stated by the Apostle Paul himself...
I Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
Okay fine.
Then what do you claim? Your thread is entitled "My Religion" and I can't read your mind so...
As foundations are the stuff of houses, so the law of identity is the stuff of understanding, knowledge, communication and thought. Every single time you think anything at all, you tacitly utilize the law of identity. Even if what you are thinking is false! If your thought has any meaning whatsoever, it does so because of the law of identity and it's corollaries.
So, we've actually taken a step backward here.
First of all, it doesn't claim to be science. Science has to do with a systematic and rational analysis of nature (i.e. with the physical world). Science has little to say about philosophy. In fact, science is an outworking of philosophy. In other words, properly done science presupposes that logic works, that reality is real (there's that law of identity again!) and that it can be understood. Thus it is philosophy that is primary here not science.
Further, your rejection of the paper's point based on its source is irrational. The point the paper makes is either valid or it is not. The religious beliefs of the author are not relevant to whether his statements are true.
Further still, if Christianity is in fact rational, one would expect an apologetics ministry to fully understand, endorse and promote the laws of reason. Have you ever discovered another major world religion that does so?
Lastly, you claim to believe in a higher power and now reject the existence of God. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Which is it? Do you believe that there is a God or don't you?
I couldn't care less about your feelings. I'm simply asking direct questions to see whether you've actually put in the effort you claim to have put in.
If I wanted to insult you, there'd be no way for you to not get the point.
What I have a problem with is liars.
You started this thread by claiming to have rejected all the world's regions and you answered my question about how it was done with a two word answer that has now been shown not only be false but an outright lie.
Not only have you not made any effort to falsify ANY of the world's religions via anything that resembles a rational thought process but we can know that whatever your region turns out to be cannot have been formulated with any sort of rational process because you're completely ignorant of even the most basic tenets of logic and reason.
This sentence is stupidity.
(See! That's what an insult from me looks like.)
Let's just look at the structure of what you just said...
A is not necessarily B therefore you could just as easily claim that B is not A.
Vehicles are not necessarily cars therefore you could just as easily claim that cars are not vehicles.
See what I mean? Stupidity!
Just because beliefs are not necessarily rational doesn't mean that they are irrational. A whole lot of beliefs are entirely rational.
No, I did not forget anything.
Everyone has some sort of belief system. There are two (and only two) broad categories. Either you believe that God exists or your believe that He does not. There are many variations of both groups but all the world's relgions fall into one or the other of those two categories. One group or the other is wrong and those in the other group ara right to one degree or another.
Because A is A, Guyver!
God either exists or He doesn't.
Mohammad is either God's profit or he isn't.
Jesus is either God's only begotten Son or He isn't.
Those three sentences alone cover more than 70% of all the world's religions (by population) and the rest are religions like Hinduism and Buddhism and things like the native American religions all of which make no attempt to be rational in any way, in fact, quite the opposite in some cases.
I make no claim to having every aspect of my doctrine correct but yes, Christianity is the only rationally consistent worldview.
That's not only stupidity but it directly contradicts your own statements!
It was you who stated (and rightly so) that "truth supersedes belief".
It does not matter one little bit how much someone believes something to be true. It is either true or it not. Truth is (period). A is A. God exists or He doesn't whether anyone believes it or not.
An excellent example of a belief that is false!
It doesn't matter whether you believe religions can be falsified or not. The fact of the matter is that they can be or at least most of them can be and the one's that can't aren't worth even thinking about because they're worthless anyway.
That's just flatly not true!
Ever heard of a hypothesis?
Ever heard of a theory?
Who said anything about science anyway? I certainly didn't. Who cares what science can or cannot test? We're discussing philosophy here not physics.
You mean that you think my comments contradict reality?
Is that what you mean?
If not, just what do you mean?
Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the twelve step's "higher power" is the very definition of an unfalsifiable god! AA and other twelve step groups do NOT care what you believe about this "higher power" so long as you believe that it can render help toward your sobriety. You can believe the pet rock in your pocket is your higher power or that there is a God who created that rock. You can even believe that your higher power is Satan himself if you want. So maybe it isn't their belief about some arbitrarily believed in higher power that is responsible for your experience.
The only reason the twelve step program is being mentioned at all is because you brought it up. I couldn't care less about it one way or the other. What I'm trying to do is flesh out this religion of yours that one would think that a thread entitled "My Religion" is supposed to be all about.
So far we've established that you not only haven't falsified all the world's religions, you've made no attempt to understand even the most basic tenets of philosophy, never mind the world's religious beliefs. You seem to have had a positive experience with a twelve step program and it's higher power and so have concluded, based on your subjective experience that such a power exist. That is anything but a rational thought process but it is at least a step in the correct direction.
So far, we've been discussing generalities, lets get more specific. Since you accept the existence of at least some sort of God, we don't have to go over the ground that established atheism as being irrational and since we're on an overtly Christian website, let's focus on that religion. Just what is it that you think is irrational about Christianity?
Clete
Clete said, "There many some religions that aren't but anything what is unfalsifiable is irrational anyway and would have been rejected by your "rational thought process" by which you claim to have rejected the world's religions.
Christianity is an excellent example of a totally falsifiable religion. It is falsifiable in several ways but perhaps the most important is stated by the Apostle Paul himself...
I Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
Great. Now all you have to do is prove Jesus is alive (resurrected) and you win.
Christianity is an excellent example of a totally falsifiable religion. It is falsifiable in several ways but perhaps the most important is stated by the Apostle Paul himself...
I Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty."
Great. Now all you have to do is prove Jesus is alive (resurrected) and you win.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
What proof would you accept?
Real proof would be fine thank you.
- Status