Is the book of Romans true?
Absolutely!
The book of Romans says the exact opposite of what you just said.
No, it absolutely does not. You are confused.
You said you don't like liars....but you said God wouldn't hold someone accountable for another persons sin. But the bible says he did. So who is lying.....you or the bible?
Look, do you want to discuss this or not? If you have an argument to make then make it and I guarantee you that you'll get far more from me than a trite two word answer. I'm not one tenth as stupid as you seem to think I am. Did you even bother to read the passage I cited before typing this stupidity up?
"Therefore, as through [h]one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous."
Before calling people a liar you should pay closer attention to what they actually said. Otherwise, you make yourself look like a fool and an idiot.
I did not claim there was no such thing as an original sin, there very much was, as the passage you quote here in Romans makes very clear. What you failed to do is to read what I said all the way to the period at the end of the sentence...
Clete said:
"This surely is referring to the hideous doctrine of original sin, which is not biblical and it is not true, not in the way that most Christian's understand it anyway.
Paul is talking about how God is NOT going to hold anyone responsible for Adam's sin because of Christ's righteous act as Calvary. That's the entire point of that whole section of Romans. Without Jesus' righteous act, there would be no hope for mankind because when Adam sinned he died spiritually and what is dead cannot produce that which is alive and thus all of his progeny would be just as dead as he was. Had God not had a plan to deal with this, He'd have simply killed Adam and Eve and been done with it but He did have a plan a big part of which included the undoing of the fall of Adam, which is what Paul is detailing in the passage you cite.
Now that's what the bible actually teaches. What it DOES NOT TEACH is that people are born dead to God as both the Catholics and Calvinist teach...
Luke 1:15
For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
Luke 1:41
And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 1:44
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Does that sound to you like John was dead before he was even born like the HIDEOUSLY unjust doctrine of "original sin" teaches? (Again, as understood by the Calvinists and Catholics, et al.)
And indeed even in the book of Romans itself that you have used as the bedrock of truth to establish your own argument, we read the following that blows the doctrine of original sin as you understand it into dust...
Romans 7:7b I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
What I'm here to tell you is that you know practically nothing about Christianity and you know even less about God if you think that He would punish people for sins that they did not commit themselves. God is just, Guyver! Indeed, there would be no such concept as justice if not for God Himself who is Justice. The fact that you intuitively understand what justice looks like is a HUGE part of why you are willing to accept the idea that there is a "higher power". The same goes for your instinct toward trusting sound reason, by the way. Even if you have failed to adhere to it, the fact that you intuitively understand that reason is the path toward truth is not only evidence of God's existence but it is a big part of the reason that you instinctively accept the existence of this higher power of yours. It's all the same instinct. You're so close to the truth that you should be able to smell it. If what you want is to worship a God of justice and reason then you need look no further than
biblical Christianity which holds that God is not simply just and rational but that He is Justice and Reason!
Lastly, you really must read that Ezekiel passage I cited earlier. I'm going to quote the whole thing below just to make it that much easier for you to read it. There is exactly nothing in the bible
anywhere that contradicts what you are about to read. If you think otherwise, you're making an error...
Ezekiel 18:The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4
“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5
But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6
If he has not eaten [a]on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7
If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8
If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true [c]judgment between man and man;
9
If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
10
“If he begets a son who is a robber
Or a shedder of blood,
Who does any of these things
11
And does none of those duties,
But has eaten [d]on the mountains
Or defiled his neighbor’s wife;
12
If he has oppressed the poor and needy,
Robbed by violence,
Not restored the pledge,
Lifted his eyes to the idols,
Or committed abomination;
13
If he has exacted usury
Or taken increase—
Shall he then live?
He shall not live!
If he has done any of these abominations,
He shall surely die;
His blood shall be upon him.
14
“If, however, he begets a son
Who sees all the sins which his father has done,
And considers but does not do likewise;
15
Who has not eaten [e]on the mountains,
Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife;
16
Has not oppressed anyone,
Nor withheld a pledge,
Nor robbed by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
17
Who has withdrawn his hand from [f]the poor
And not received usury or increase,
But has executed My judgments
And walked in My statutes—
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father;
He shall surely live!
18
“As for his father,
Because he cruelly oppressed,
Robbed his brother by violence,
And did what is not good among his people,
Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
Turn and Live
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
a. Ezekiel 18:6 At the mountain shrines
b. Ezekiel 18:8 Lent money at interest
c. Ezekiel 18:8 justice
d. Ezekiel 18:11 At the mountain shrines
e. Ezekiel 18:15 At the mountain shrines
f. Ezekiel 18:17 So with MT, Tg., Vg.; LXX iniquity (cf. v. 8)
