Huckleberry
New member
Married fifteen years and have four kids? You must be doing something right. :thumb:
Leads to the question, though...which side of the divide would you guys live on in Jefferson's "unrealistic fantasy"?! :shocked:
My fantasy. And a question for liberals
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Leads to the question, though...which side of the divide would you guys live on in Jefferson's "unrealistic fantasy"?! :shocked:
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Definitely Jefferson's side, although I might try to create a third side out of the less authoritarian side of his
Before we continue this discussion on the Founding Fathers and the Constitution, I highly suggest that you read this article that talks about the views of the founder of the college that you attend (Michael Farris, founder of Patrick Henry College).
Here is the short version of what Farris said in his book "Constitutional Law for Christian Students. Revised Edition."
The Declaration of Independence was the charter of our nation. It makes clear what most citizens of the colonies believed.
They believed that they were establishing a new nation based soundly on the Laws of God.
The opening statement of the Declaration expresses these firm beliefs and convictions. "When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them to another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and Nature's God entitle them..."
They believed freedom was a gift from Nature and Nature's God. They intended to create a government that would protect these God given freedoms---not dispense them.
By basing our right to be a free nation upon God's law, we were also saying by implication that we owed obedience to the law that allowed us to be a separate country from England.
The last paragraph of the Declaration says they are, "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly, publish and declare, that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states;...", ending with, and for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor."
Farris says the Declaration is our charter. It the legal document that made us a nation like all the other nations of the world. It doesn't tell us how we are going to run our country---that is what our Constitution does.
In a corporation, the Charter is higher than the By-Laws and the By-Laws must be interpreted to be in agreement with the Charter. Therefore, the Constitution of the United States must be in agreement with the Declaration of Independence, or as Farris sometimes calls it, " The Declaration of the United States."
The most important statement in our Declaration is that we want to operate under the laws of God and we invoke His blessing.
When the courts today are deciding what the Constitution means in regard to specific issues, they should review and remember the "Charter" or the Declaration in regards to original intent.
The Constitution doesn't specifically mention God, because it doesn't have to. The Declaration is the charter or higher document and it clearly outlines our relationship with God and His laws.
The Declaration makes it very clear that we are a nation under God's laws. Therefore all laws of our country should be consistent with the law of God or they violate our national charter.
It was our Founders intent that this would be a nation under God, that would look to God for blessing and guidance.
http://blog.faithandfreedom.us/2010/03/is-constitution-god-less-document.html
Oh and Jr.: The guy who wrote that document that talks about God and that we are a nation founded on God's laws:
Thomas Jefferson (some deist huh?).
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't agree with Dr. Farris on this. We've discussed it in person. We have a different understanding of natural law as well as "religious liberty."
The last time I checked Michael Farris is the constitutional scholar, not you.
BTW, those Puritans that you admire so much: They were slaveholders long before our Founding Fathers were born.
Slavery in Massachusetts
http://slavenorth.com/massachusetts.htm
Thank Jefferson (the supposed "deist") and others for writing into our nation's charter that "All men are created equal".
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
So? Our disagreement is ideological. He doesn't believe the nation should be Christian. "Based on Christian principles", yes, but not Christian. Farris believes that it was murder for Geneva to put Michael Servetus to death, I believe it was justice.
I am willing to bet you that Farris would not try to defend the claim that Jefferson was Christian. Want me to find out?
That was a side point though. My main point was regarding the foundation of the society.
he was still a deist.
Yeah.....So's Obama.
If he's appointed to the Supreme Court in another decade or so I'll remember you said that.:jolly:
:doh: Oh Lordy, I can only imagine...
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Yeah.....So's Obama.
LOL!
I disagree with Dr. Farris on several things but that's a bit low
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Farris on the Supreme Court would be pretty interesting...
In the same way Peter Dinklage playing defensive end in the NFL would be, sure.
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Meh. I'd mostly support him as far as it goes, at least from what I'm aware of. I fundamentally disagree with him that the problems can be fixed while keeping the constitution and the current form of government. But as far as potential options to try go, I think Farris would stick to his own positions at least.
drbrumley
Well-known member
You are all over the map.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Institutions are an invaluable asset to society. When you go messing with the most important institution that society has (marriage, which along with the family is the nucleus of any society) then you just hit the "self destruct" button.
Well, I certainly agree with this, so I need to ask....are we still allowed to marry a woman? Listening to you, the world just blew up. Did the government suddenly outlaw marriage between a man and a woman and now we can only marry those of the same sex?
Fact is AcW, your no different then the homos who use the government to force their agenda onto others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
The last time I checked Michael Farris is the constitutional scholar, not you.
No, a constitutional scholar has shown that our Founding Fathers created a nation that valued the Word of God, both in laws and culture.
How do you force a nation to become Christian (back to that theocratic "top down" approach)? How do you force individuals to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
Christian principles (laws and culture) is the only way to become a Christian nation (back to the "bottom up" approach that I spoke of earlier).
Ask him if a "deist" could have written the Declaration of Independence and written a Bible that valued the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
BTW, those Puritans that you admire so much: They were slaveholders long before our Founding Fathers were born.
Slavery in Massachusetts
http://slavenorth.com/massachusetts.htm
I called you out on your "side point" and showed that the Founding Fathers created a nation based on the Word of God.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Thank Jefferson (the supposed "deist") and others for writing into our nation's charter that "All men are created equal".
According to my understanding of deism they believe that God created the world but then became indifferent to it.
If Thomas Jefferson believed in deism, why even mention God as he did all so frequently in his writings?
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
The last time I checked Michael Farris is the constitutional scholar, not you.
No, a constitutional scholar has shown that our Founding Fathers created a nation that valued the Word of God, both in laws and culture.
How do you force a nation to become Christian (back to that theocratic "top down" approach)? How do you force individuals to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
Christian principles (laws and culture) is the only way to become a Christian nation (back to the "bottom up" approach that I spoke of earlier).
Ask him if a "deist" could have written the Declaration of Independence and written a Bible that valued the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
BTW, those Puritans that you admire so much: They were slaveholders long before our Founding Fathers were born.
Slavery in Massachusetts
http://slavenorth.com/massachusetts.htm
I called you out on your "side point" and showed that the Founding Fathers created a nation based on the Word of God.
Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Thank Jefferson (the supposed "deist") and others for writing into our nation's charter that "All men are created equal".
According to my understanding of deism they believe that God created the world but then became indifferent to it.
If Thomas Jefferson believed in deism, why even mention God as he did all so frequently in his writings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Institutions are an invaluable asset to society. When you go messing with the most important institution that society has (marriage, which along with the family is the nucleus of any society) then you just hit the "self destruct" button.
You agree but obviously don't understand what I just said.
Yes, my marriage is still valid the last time I checked. That being said: At the rate we're going (the Libertarian ideology of "the right to privacy" which was the basis for the SCOTUS ruling on Obergefell and Hodges) people will be able to marry as many as they like and whatever they like (a person's mother, brother, 3 favorite cousins and let's not forget man's best friend)
Yet another nail in the coffin. BTW, show me a nation that allowed sexual deviancy that existed over a long period of time.
(Steve took my mockery of Lawrence Vance wrapped in the rainbow flag a bit hard).
What is the righteous role of government?
And could you get back to me in this decade with your answer?
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Institutions are an invaluable asset to society. When you go messing with the most important institution that society has (marriage, which along with the family is the nucleus of any society) then you just hit the "self destruct" button.
You agree but obviously don't understand what I just said.
Yes, my marriage is still valid the last time I checked. That being said: At the rate we're going (the Libertarian ideology of "the right to privacy" which was the basis for the SCOTUS ruling on Obergefell and Hodges) people will be able to marry as many as they like and whatever they like (a person's mother, brother, 3 favorite cousins and let's not forget man's best friend)
Yet another nail in the coffin. BTW, show me a nation that allowed sexual deviancy that existed over a long period of time.
(Steve took my mockery of Lawrence Vance wrapped in the rainbow flag a bit hard).
What is the righteous role of government?
And could you get back to me in this decade with your answer?
Explain.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Jefferson rejected Christ from what I understand but I could be wrong, Hence the Jefferson Bible.