Someone alert the media.lain:
What, that yet another Libertarian has joined the thread and has absolutely nothing useful to say?
My fantasy. And a question for liberals
- Thread starter Jefferson
- Start date
What, that yet another Libertarian has joined the thread and has absolutely nothing useful to say?
jeffblue101
New member
Reality is quite different from a utopian liberal society, you might find it interesting that almost every single socialist state in Europe has decreasing birth rates despite the fact that many of the more liberal countries are giving money upfront to couples just to have a single child. A reason, I believe for this is that conservatives or even specifically the Christian worldview has a positive outlook on raising children. While on the other hand, liberals in general tend to consider children a burden financially and emotionally, something to be put off until their 30's or later.(I'm expecting alot of negative reps for that comment from liberals) so its really just a matter of a difference of worldviews.
OR
Since it's the duty of Christians to share God's Word with non-believers with the hope of converting them to Christianity...
drbrumley
Well-known member
Well, that would be difficult as you haven't a clue about libertarianism.
Abortion has a victim, so your off base with that one.
Homosexuality, I can see victimization in that. If a homo molests a child, that child is a victim. If Steve and AcW decided to become homos, then who is the victim in that scenario?
Porno, again, a child becomes a victim if said child is put in this situation, (see molestation).
Prostitution, where's the victim?
Recreational Drugs, unless someone is forcing it in you, you have no case.
shagster01
New member
In other words, it would be safer to not be a professing Christian in your country.
Good point. You'd be a second-class citizen one way or another but it'd be easier to just keep your head down and not even bother explaining your faith. Play it safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Regarding vices v crimes:
We can talk about anything that a true Libertarian thinks should be legal:
Abortion, homosexuality, pornography (kiddy porn included), prostitution, all recreational drugs, etc. etc. etc.
Pick one or all of the above topics and then show me that there is no victim, henceforth there shouldn't be a law against such behavior if there is no victim, right?
I asked your fellow Libertarian Lexington76 to define Libertarian ideology in another thread without using the subjective words "liberty" and "freedom" and all he could do is use the words "liberty" and "freedom" to describe Libertarian ideology.
You turn.
No, you're way off as two of the keywords in Libertarian ideology is "self ownership".
Play nice Steve, lets not take cheap shots at one another (I'll guarantee you that you won't win)
To answer your question: In Judeo-Christian doctrine (and a country that legislates by it) the individual has worth, i.e. we love our neighbor as we love ourselves and do everything possible to keep them from destroying themselves.
Since the decriminalization of homosexuality we've seen how these sexually and morally confused people who allegedly wanted to be left alone in the confines of their bedrooms to sodomize whomever became organized and created a movement that amongst other things molests the minds of innocent children, takes parental rights away and robs American's of their God-given right to religious freedom.
The women that are treated like cheap pieces of meat and the wives who aren't truly loved by their husbands because they're fantasizing about having sex with other women (pornography often does lead to adultery).
Both participants are engaging in an act that cheapens what God designed for man and woman when it comes to sexuality. The legalization of prostitution would cheapen God's beautiful design throughout society.
Not only the individual, but his or her family, neighbors and society in general.
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Regarding vices v crimes:
We can talk about anything that a true Libertarian thinks should be legal:
Abortion, homosexuality, pornography (kiddy porn included), prostitution, all recreational drugs, etc. etc. etc.
Pick one or all of the above topics and then show me that there is no victim, henceforth there shouldn't be a law against such behavior if there is no victim, right?
I asked your fellow Libertarian Lexington76 to define Libertarian ideology in another thread without using the subjective words "liberty" and "freedom" and all he could do is use the words "liberty" and "freedom" to describe Libertarian ideology.
You turn.
No, you're way off as two of the keywords in Libertarian ideology is "self ownership".
Play nice Steve, lets not take cheap shots at one another (I'll guarantee you that you won't win)
To answer your question: In Judeo-Christian doctrine (and a country that legislates by it) the individual has worth, i.e. we love our neighbor as we love ourselves and do everything possible to keep them from destroying themselves.
Since the decriminalization of homosexuality we've seen how these sexually and morally confused people who allegedly wanted to be left alone in the confines of their bedrooms to sodomize whomever became organized and created a movement that amongst other things molests the minds of innocent children, takes parental rights away and robs American's of their God-given right to religious freedom.
The women that are treated like cheap pieces of meat and the wives who aren't truly loved by their husbands because they're fantasizing about having sex with other women (pornography often does lead to adultery).
Both participants are engaging in an act that cheapens what God designed for man and woman when it comes to sexuality. The legalization of prostitution would cheapen God's beautiful design throughout society.
Not only the individual, but his or her family, neighbors and society in general.
shagster01
New member
So God is the victim?
Institutions are an invaluable asset to society. When you go messing with the most important institution that society has (marriage, which along with the family is the nucleus of any society) then you just hit the "self destruct" button.
God set the rules. Those who (society included) unwisely choose not to follow His rules are fools.
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
If you're a heretic it will be better for you if you're honest about the fact that you're not a Christian than if you pretend to be one, yes.
See? Totalitarianism's so cut and dry.
And consistent. And utilitarian! It applies everywhere!
You may know the name Ron Enroth; he's written extensively on abusive churches, a topic generally ignored or considered distasteful in most evangelical circles. I corresponded briefly with Enroth some years back to thank him for his work (Churches That Abuse was helpful to me after leaving one).
I mentioned the congregation I'd left was Reconstructionist and Enroth volunteered something interesting: "Mr. Bahnsen was a seminary student of mine many years ago and even then I knew something was seriously disturbed with him."
Only up to a point, however.
Uh...that doesn't work, either. The Puritans weren't citizens of the U.S.
Once again your ignorance of our founding documents and the people who wrote it is duly noted (our rights come from God).
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
I really don't care what a secular humanist idolater thinks of me or my policies
And unlike some people, I don't really care to cleverly present my beliefs in order to make them sound better.
And consistent. And utilitarian! It applies everywhere!
I also didn't say that. aCW did. Misquote...
I haven't heard of him.
Its an important topic, although I don't know that what you consider "abusive" is going to be logical.
I'm not really inclined to touch this. I know the modern world hates recons. I'm curious if Enroth is R2K or has a bone to pick with theonomists. Of course, it could also be something else, but that's just my immediate suspicion.
Fair enough. So I'll just say America has NEVER been a Christian nation, and thus, has ALWAYS been under God's judgment.
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Which God? They never agreed on it. Jefferson was a deist (though I know you'll quote nonsense from Barton trying to refute the claim )yet he was allowed to be a citizen of the US. This is a problem.
Not to mention the dehumanization of black people from the beginning, which is utterly indefensible no matter how hard people try. The more I think about this, the less I like or respect the founders. They laid the foundation for this mess from the beginning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Once again your ignorance of our founding documents and the people who wrote it is duly noted (our rights come from God).
The One and Only God.
"They" being? (Name a majority of the Founding Fathers that didn't agree that our rights come from God and hence refused to sign the Declaration of Independence).
I didn't know that deists took the time to write and thus highlight the key verses and passages in Holy Scripture (hence the Jefferson Bible).
The Founding Fathers aint got nothing on us Jr. While they did allow thousands to be enslaved (including some whites), we sit back and allow 58 million of our most innocent to be murdered in the womb in 43 year period.
Who are the true barbarians Jr. : the country that embraces murder of it's most innocent and takes "pride" in sexual deviants marching in the streets and changing it's invaluable institutions, or the one's that didn't immediately change something (slavery) that had been on the continent a couple of hundred years before our nation was founded?
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Once again your ignorance of our founding documents and the people who wrote it is duly noted (our rights come from God).
The One and Only God.
"They" being? (Name a majority of the Founding Fathers that didn't agree that our rights come from God and hence refused to sign the Declaration of Independence).
I didn't know that deists took the time to write and thus highlight the key verses and passages in Holy Scripture (hence the Jefferson Bible).
The Founding Fathers aint got nothing on us Jr. While they did allow thousands to be enslaved (including some whites), we sit back and allow 58 million of our most innocent to be murdered in the womb in 43 year period.
Who are the true barbarians Jr. : the country that embraces murder of it's most innocent and takes "pride" in sexual deviants marching in the streets and changing it's invaluable institutions, or the one's that didn't immediately change something (slavery) that had been on the continent a couple of hundred years before our nation was founded?
Christian Liberty
Well-known member
Except they didn't. Jefferson's version was an idol.
They all agreed that those rights came from some "God" but not necessarily the one of the BIble.
You really deserve an insult here but I'll spare it...
Jefferson wasn't "highlighting specific verses in the Bible." He purposely cherry picking to keep Christ's morals but eliminate his miracles. Because he was a deist that didn't believe in miracles.
I am aware of this. I'm not saying they were worse than us. They are not. But the foundation was still wrong from the beginning. The puritans got it right. The founders screwed it up.