Mid Acts Disponsationalism

[Clete]

It seems Clete would like to see the Old Testament Laws to be enforced today?

The questions you've asked in this post are legitimate questions. I'll try to address them briefly and in good faith that you're actually asking the question and not merely making a rhetorical point. We can have a serious discussion if you're willing.

In answer to this first point, its more complex than this but, generally speaking, yes I would like to Old Testament Laws enforced but not because they're Old Testament Laws. I support justice, not Judaism.

Well, should we start stoning (executing) adulterers?

YES!

This single law would reduce not just adultery but also murder, drug use, teen pregnancy, gang activity, etc, etc, etc. Its all connected.

If that were to happen, we'd run out of stones really quick!

No we wouldn't!

First of all, it is not just to enforce laws retroactively and so you'd have to first re-criminalize the behavior. Then the criminal is executed PUBLICLY upon conviction of the crime. You wouldn't execute twenty people before the whole society figured it out.

And, should we start stoning (executing) unruly children? We'd run out of heir's real quick as well.

This one is something of a gray area actually. For a long time I supported this law as stated in scripture without qualification but there is a reasonable argument to be made that this law was an aspect of the law that had to do with Israel in particular as apposed to a law dealing with morality in general. The argument isn't iron clad though so I'm on the fence a little on this. Generally, when that happens I go with the plain reading of the text.

I would point out however that this law isn't talking about small children throwing a temper tantrum. Read the text and think through what sort of situation would have to occur, remembering that this law was in force within a society that had a VERY just legal system and excellent societal ideas about how to raise children. You cannot analyze such a law from within the context of a horribly unjust society that hasn't the faintest idea what justice looks like nor how to raise children who fear God and respect their parents.

Further, and most importantly, you should pay closer attention to the implications of the things you say. This point is never ever brought up except in attempt to do one thing. Bringing this up does nothing to discredit me it attempts to discredit Old Testament Law! The implication is that Old Testament Law was unjust. The proof that its unjust is that it includes this insane law! The only problem is that I didn't write the Old Testament Law - GOD DID!

If you want to press the point, you'll find yourself arguing against the justice of God, which is THE foundation of the entire Christian faith.

Think twice Clete, about what you want reestablished?

I've been thinking about this stuff for more than twenty years. You won't say a word against my position that I haven't heard a hundred times before.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I quoted you post directly.

You said, "We need the death penalty (my opinion) for
those who, "Lie in Wait" to murder another person."

You then said,"The gays and adulterers need to hear the Message of God's Grace towards mankind, through faith in Jesus Christ. Some may reject and some will accept truth. That's the way it is with every kind of lost sinner. "

This draws a distinction between murderers and ever other "kind of lost sinner".

A distinction that you clearly made and that I read and understood with perfect clarity.

I ask you again...

By what standard do you make such distinctions?

Presumably we, as a society, are to execute murders and preach to everyone else while imposing a "harsh" sentence on some. Perhaps you could clarify just what your opinion dictates as being harsh.

I am not playing games with you. I am trying to force you to think through the things you say. Answer the question. By what standard do you support the death penalty for murderers but not for the child rapist.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You're mixing apples with oranges. In this WORLD we live in now,
the ONLY reason for the death penalty is, murdering another person.

We cannot execute adulterers, unruly children, (Old Testament)
and homosexuals. We're living in "The Dispensation of Grace."
Those other laws were set up for "The House of Israel." Christ
stopped a group of people who wanted to stone a woman to death
for adultery. I'm sure you know that story?

Do you believe our society ought to execute disobedient children
and adulterers? Where does it end then? Liars who bear false
witness, etc? Murderers also need to hear, The Grace Message,
as well, in case you wonder?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Our justice system will hardly ever execute a murderer. Do you really
think they'll execute a child molester, adulterer, or homosexual?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We on TOL have no say when it comes to the U.S. justice system. All
we can do is vote and supply our opinions. That's the way it is.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The Old Testament speaks of not letting a witch live. There's a lot
of people into the occult. Do you think our justice system will put
them to death?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The best we who are "True Believers" can do is, pray for people and
tell them about "The Grace Message" that God has offered to ALL of
Mankind.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We can't spend our time on earth, hating certain sinners and wishing them
dead!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Does God want us to witness His truth to ALL kinds of sinners? You bet He does.
He wants ALL to come to a saving knowledge of His Grace towards lost sinners.

 

[Tambora]

I believe what Clete has tried to tell you is that the OT law is not unjust.

 

[Clete]

You're mixing apples with oranges. In this WORLD we live in now,
the ONLY reason for the death penalty is, murdering another person.

Says who?

Paul, the Apostle of the Dispensation of Grace, disagrees with you.

Why is Paul wrong?

We cannot execute adulterers, unruly children, (Old Testament) and homosexuals.

Why not?

We're living in "The Dispensation of Grace."

Yeah, so was Paul.

Those other laws were set up for "The House of Israel." Christ
stopped a group of people who wanted to stone a woman to death
for adultery. I'm sure you know that story?

Yes, He did so according to the law!

The testimony of two or three witnesses is required for conviction. No such witnesses came forward.

Jesus manipulated the situation to work out that way because, as the text tells us, it was a trap. Those who brought the prostitute before Jesus were attempting to get Jesus in trouble with the Roman authorities. He DID NOT abolish one jot or tittle of the law with that maneuver.

Do you believe our society ought to execute disobedient children and adulterers?

I've already answered this question. You should read the post before responding to it.

Where does it end then? Liars who bear false
witness, etc?

You actually do believe that God is unjust, don't you?!

God never said to execute liars, you fool!

Perjury could be a capital offense but only if you commit perjury in a capital case. If you lie in court in an attempt to get a murderer off and are caught in the lie then you are an accomplice to murder and aught to be executed. But if the case is about a non-capital offense then the punishment for perjury is whatever is at stake in the case. So if the defendant will owe $500 if found guilty, then you will owe $500 if caught perjuring yourself. It is done unto you as you sought to have done to your neighbor. It is the golden rule applied to the criminal.

Murderers also need to hear, The Grace Message,
as well, in case you wonder?

Well how in the world are they ever going to hear the grace message of we kill them?????

That is YOUR argument in the case of every other thing God calls a capital crime. Why doesn't it apply to murderers?

You have not answered my question!

By what standard do you make these judgements?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Our justice system will hardly ever execute a murderer. Do you really
think they'll execute a child molester, adulterer, or homosexual?

No, they definitely will not ever do so. I don't base my understanding of what justice is on the American legal justice system, which isn't a justice system at all. It's just a system.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In answer to this first point, its more complex than this but, generally speaking, yes I would like to Old Testament Laws enforced but not because they're Old Testament Laws. I support justice, not Judaism.


YES!

This single law would reduce not just adultery but also murder, drug use, teen pregnancy, gang activity, etc, etc, etc. Its all connected.


Clete

How is "Adultery" connected to, murder, drug abuse, teen pregnancy,
gang activity, etc? That's not even logical? One doesn't lead to another.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, they definitely will not ever do so. I don't base my understanding of what justice is on the American legal justice system, which isn't a justice system at all. It's just a system.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Would you seek to have, adultery, child molestation, homosexuality,
drunkenness, unruly children, etc, a "Death Penalty" issue, if you
could?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I believe what Clete has tried to tell you is that the OT law is not unjust.

I would NEVER say that it was! The Bible is inspired of God. What ever
laws were enforced when it came to the Israelite's, was from God.
However, we're now living in the "Dispensation of Grace" and God
is dealing with mankind in a different way. The Gentiles were NEVER
under the law to begin with.

Abraham was a Gentile and was "saved" by faith in God. When the law
was later instituted, after Moses gave the law to the Israelite's, they
had to live by the rules, laws, judgments of God Himself. They had
to sacrifice animals and live in accordance to the laws given to Moses.
Those laws were never meant for the Gentiles. The House of Israel
were the "Chosen people" of God.

Today, we're to follow the laws that our society dictates.

Romans 13:1-5 states: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Today, we as a society are under the "laws of the land." In certain states,
the death penalty is warranted for first degree murderers. However, there
is no such penalties set up for child molesters, rapists, adulterers, etc.

Some think that those types of offenders should have the death penalty
along with those who are murderers. It's all subjective, of course.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

My personal opinion is, child molesters, and perpetual violent criminals
should be put away from society as long as they live. Many years ago
I had a girlfriend that was repeatedly molested as a child, by her natural
Father. I was so incensed by this, that for years after, I thought such
people should get the death penalty. It took me years, but, I changed
my mind about that issue. I now believe, that kind of criminal should
be behind bars for life. However, I'd like to see the "Grace Message"
be preached to them and all criminals, even murderers.

There's no one so dirty, that God's Grace cannot cleanse them.

 

[Tambora]

You know I love ya, GM.

But when you say:

Today, we're to follow the laws that our society dictates.

And also say you are against the death penalty would be contradicting yourself if you lived in TEXAS or any state that has the death penalty.

Society has gone so far down the path of moving away from God that it now makes adultery, murder (abortion), and homosexuality legally acceptable. So much so that society is even trying to make you into a hate-crime criminal if you even speak out against such things.
As Knight said, America is going to hell in a hand-basket, and it is our municipal powers that are paving the path.

 

[musterion]

As Knight said, America is going to hell in a hand-basket

We've already arrived. This society tolerates, promotes and celebrates some things which would likely have been morally unthinkable even to the eradicated heathens of the Old Testament. I know we already know that; I mention it only to say what I'm so fond of saying: it's all coming to pass exactly as foretold.

 

[Tambora]

We've already arrived. This society tolerates, promotes and celebrates some things which would likely have been morally unthinkable even to the eradicated heathens of the Old Testament. I know we already know that; I mention it only to say what I'm so fond of saying: it's all coming to pass exactly as foretold.

As foretold.

And not to pick on GM, for I feel his heart is in the right place. But if he really believes that everyone must abide by whatever civil authorities dictate as law, then he would be one that would need to take the mark of the beast or else be outcast or executed.
So, something ain't quite adding up about following the laws that our society dictates.

 

[musterion]

Know what I'm curious about? There are 5 people who poll as unsure about MAD. That's great, so a thread that the MAD experts (myself excluded) could answer whatever questions they may want to ask would be nice, if it could be worked out. By that I mean, it would HAVE to exclude the usual troll spam from the usual suspects whose minds are made up...and that'd be the trick. Would have to involve serious moderation. Is it possible?