This is the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Again, if Maundy Thursday is not on a Thursday, because that's when the crucifixion happened, then there's no point in further discussion. It's completely moot.
Maunday Thursday
- Thread starter rstrats
- Start date
This is the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Again, if Maundy Thursday is not on a Thursday, because that's when the crucifixion happened, then there's no point in further discussion. It's completely moot.
Derf
Well-known member
Yes.
Yes. John talks about a “preparation day”. That seems to be Passover day, and the next is a high sabbath (happens on any day of the week).
Yes, I think it accelerates the calendar by 1 day. Some people think 2 days, but counting from 10 Nisan to 14 Nisan only allows for the killing to happen on a Thursday before sundown.
Leviticus 23:5-7 (KJV) 5 In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month [is] the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. 7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
“At even” is the part in question, I think. I used to think it meant at sundown, but that’s too short a time to kill so many lambs. It can’t be the previous evening after sundown, because the children of Israel had no time for their bread to rise (“unleavened” bread) and it would have been plenty of time, it seems, between the killing of the lambs and the rush away from Egypt (which was why there was no time for bread rising) almost 24 hours later.
So I think “at even”, which is more literally translated “between the evenings”, must mean “the going down of the sun from high noon”, of afternoon.
Deuteronomy 16:6 (KJV) But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
Derf
Well-known member
Yes, and his sister Patty deFoy!
Ah, good. You finally get it.
I don't think you did.
When I say "there's no point in further discussion," I mean there's no point at all. For anyone. Even you.
Like I said, it's the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. And yes, I mean as it's sinking.
I gave you a couple of lines of evidence that the crucifixion happened on Thursday. Therefore "Maundy Thursday" is a falsehood.
Yeah, ChatGPT isn't coming up with anything useful...
I took that to mean that since you didn't believe in a Friday crucifixion, the day that is connected with Maundy Thursday which is what this topic is about, that you realized that the bringing a Thursday crucifixion into the topic would be trying to hijack it with your own agenda.
You should be more concerned with truth than propping up a falsehood with discussion.
If, and I have given evidence that it is, Thursday was the day Christ was crucified, then Maundy Thursday is a falsehood that needs to be discarded.
It is a defeater to this entire discussion. It renders the discussion about the details moot, because it's incorrect to begin with.
Like I said, rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
We have "high days" (John 19:31) as standard Roman Catholics too, like Christmas and Easter (but not Good Friday or Holy Thursday or Ash Wednesday are high days, holy days of obligation, or holidays for us, technically there's no Mass obligation for any of those days). obv Easter's always on a Sunday anyway, but we're gravely obligated to go to Mass on Christmas and other holidays, even when it's during the week.
I guess whatever happened, Jesus and His disciples must have killed the Passover at least one day ahead of others. Which means they also ate the Passover at least one day ahead as well. And I think that's really the point of Maundy Thursday, it's the "birthday" of the Eucharist.
@Idolater @rstrats I found the show I was looking for.
Bob had a guest on, Dr. Grady McMurtry, who went through, in detail, when the events surrounding Christ's crucifixion occurred, and why it was, in fact, on a Thursday that Christ was crucified, and not a Friday, using two different methods.
There is also another thread worth looking through here on TOL:
On what day was Christ crucified?
Hi Y'all, The Gospel of Mark (and the other Synoptic Gospels) has Jesus being crucified after Passover, yet John has Jesus crucified before. For anyone not familiar with this biblical curiosity, I'll run through the passages. It helps to remember that for the Jews, a new day begins when it...theologyonline.com
Except it's not a different topic.
If the Biblical narrative shows Christ being crucified on Thursday, and not on Friday, as tradition supposes, then "Maundy Thursday" should be a different day of the week, not Thursday.
Ideas have consequences.
If you're looking in the wrong place for truth, you'll never find it.
@Derf
@Idolater
@rstrats
Did you listen to the Kgov show I posted here?
If not, you should.
You're free not to, of course, but you should, because it ends the discussion. Completely. It leaves no room for interpretation. It fits the narrative of the Bible perfectly.
Actually, it doesn't because the speaker on your link doesn't believe in a Maundy Thursday. This topic is directed to those that do.
He doesn't believe in it because it's a false belief!
And whether someone believes in Maundy Thursday is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making!
If Maundy Thursday is a false belief based on incorrect interpretation of the Bible, then you should discard the idea altogether! Not continue to discuss its merits!
Do you not understand what I'm saying when I compare this discussion to rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic?
The Titanic sank! All of the deck chairs on the titanic were destroyed or lost or scattered by its sinking! Whatever rearranging someone did of them before the Titanic sank was, ultimately, COMPLETELY POINTLESS! IT DID. NOT. MATTER!
In the same way, discussing Maundy Thursday is pointless, because the entire concept is destroyed by the actual timeline of the Bible! Trying to figure out when something occurred in an event that never happened is not only completely pointless, it's sheer stupidity! The people on the Titanic did not know the ship would sink! At least for them, rearranging deck chairs had meaning, at least for a time. But for this discussion, I've given you not just evidence, but STRONG evidence that the Bible gives a timeline that does not allow for "Maundy Thursday." THERE IS NO MEANING in further discussion of its details. It's moot from the beginning of the discussion!
I'm not saying you can't discuss Maundy Thursday! I'm saying you should at the very least admit that it's a false belief, because the Bible doesn't allow for it, and go from there.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
There's enough room to drive a truck through. Why did Jesus and the disciples keep the Passover early? It's not like they weren't in Jerusalem, and there was some diaspora rule they were following. Everybody was doing everything at the same time, synchronized, coordinated. Under the claim that Jesus was crucified on Thursday means they killed the Passover a day early—why'd they do that?
Note I'm not saying the claim is wrong. I'm just saying there's a defeater, and that needs to get defeated before I can believe the claim, before the claim is a valid, available candidate for me to accept. I'm not against believing it, it's just that there's a defeater standing in my way, and for me it's a persuasive one.
So that question was not answered or addressed in the discussion, unless I missed it, but I did listen to every minute of it.
Note also that if the Last Supper was eaten the evening BEFORE the Passover was eaten (by everybody else), how significant it is that Paul calls Christ our Passover. It wasn't that the Eucharist was consumed with the Passover, it was consumed before the Passover. So that part of the claim that He died on Thursday is intriguing to me as a standard Roman Catholic.
I think this article will help you understand.
Solving the Three Day Three Night Mystery – Grace thru faith
Note: Jack originally published this article in 2003. It remains one of the most popular on this site, and for good reason. It’s a great example of what we love about his studies: taking God at His Word and not relying on human logic or tradition. This study has been an eye opener for so many,
gracethrufaith.com
(I will point out that they (GrThFa) are incorrect when they say that "the next day begins at sundown," as it was pointed out by Dr. McMurtry that the next day starts at darkness, not sundown, but other than that, the article provides a proper timeline.)
In other words, they didn't kill the Passover lamb a day early. Passover itself is a day prior to when you believe it took place. Passover is on 14 Nisan, not 15 Nisan, regardless of which days of the week they happen to be that year.
That year, 15 Nisan fell on Thursday night to Friday sundown. And 14 Nisan was Wednesday night to Thursday sundown (which follows with Genesis 1's "evening and morning were the next day," and with Leviticus 23's details given by God (and Exodus 12)).
Which means 10 Nisan was when the lamb was chosen. (Palm Sunday)
And 11, 12, and 13 Nisan was inspecting the lamb for blemishes. (As the article describes, there was some pretty fierce questioning of Jesus until the end of the 13th (which was Wednesday!) at which point Jesus takes them to the upper room! Where on 14 Nisan (Wednesday night), Jesus eats His final meal with the Disciples, before he is taken to be slaughtered as the Lamb.
It just fits!
Passover is the full day. That means that it begins at darkness on what we consider the previous day, and continues until sundown of the current day. Jesus and His disciples ate the passover meal after darkness had fallen on Wednesday, but that's according to our calendar. According to the Jewish calendar, it was already 14 Nisan, Passover. As pointed out in John 18:28, the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans had not YET eaten passover, and still wanted to be able to do so, thus did not enter the Governor's headquarters.
Jesus was on the cross, and the Bible tells us that the sabbaths were drawing near, so they needed to get his body down quickly. Not just one, but multiple. The greek word in Matthew 28:1 and Luke 23:54 is "sabbaton," the plural form of sabbath.
Friday that week was a High Sabbath (which are associated with dates on the calendar given to God by the Jews, not with days of the week). He thus could not have been crucified on Friday, 15 Nisan, because that was Unleavened Bread, a high Sabbath, but instead on 14 Nisan, which started Wednesday night and continued into Thursday. Passover is not a sabbath day.
The answer to your "defeater," Idolater, of "why did Jesus keep the Passover early" is, quite simply, He didn't.
He and His disciples ate the Passover meal on the day of Passover, what would have been Wednesday night, because Jesus wanted to have one last meal with them before being crucified in the morning, then dying at 3 pm, and buried a few hours later.
Jesus ate the Passover, was betrayed at Gethsemane, was brought before Pontius Pilate to be questioned, was denied by Peter, was rejected by the Jews in favor of Barabbas, was led to the cross, died on the cross, and was buried in the tomb, all on Passover, 14 Nisan, the start of day one in the tomb. 15 Nisan the start of day two. 16 Nisan the start of day three. 17 Nisan before dawn, Jesus rose ON the third day since his burial.
Edit: Changed days of the week to Jewish calendar days to make it clearer, and added clarification on why they didn't kill the passover a day early.
Last edited:
Derf
Well-known member
We assume that what they ate was the commanded lamb, but there's little in the gospel accounts that talks of any lamb at the last supper. Jesus focused on the bread, and didn't mention the lamb. That seems strange to me, since we are all sure that Jesus was clearly fore-typed by the passover lamb.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I think this article will help you understand.
Solving the Three Day Three Night Mystery – Grace thru faith
Note: Jack originally published this article in 2003. It remains one of the most popular on this site, and for good reason. It’s a great example of what we love about his studies: taking God at His Word and not relying on human logic or tradition. This study has been an eye opener for so many,
(I will point out that they (GrThFa) are incorrect when they say that "the next day begins at sundown," as it was pointed out by Dr. McMurtry that the next day starts at darkness, not sundown, but other than that, the article provides a proper timeline.)
In other words, they didn't kill the Passover lamb a day early. Passover itself is a day prior to when you believe it took place. Passover is on 14 Nisan, not 15 Nisan, regardless of which days of the week they happen to be that year.
That year, 15 Nisan fell on Thursday night to Friday sundown. And 14 Nisan was Wednesday night to Thursday sundown (which follows with Genesis 1's "evening and morning were the next day," and with Leviticus 23's details given by God (and Exodus 12)).
Which means 10 Nisan was when the lamb was chosen. (Palm Sunday)
And 11, 12, and 13 Nisan was inspecting the lamb for blemishes. (As the article describes, there was some pretty fierce questioning of Jesus until the end of the 13th (which was Wednesday!) at which point Jesus takes them to the upper room! Where on 14 Nisan (Wednesday night), Jesus eats His final meal with the Disciples, before he is taken to be slaughtered as the Lamb.
It just fits!
Passover is the full day. That means that it begins at darkness on what we consider the previous day, and continues until sundown of the current day. Jesus and His disciples ate the passover meal after darkness had fallen on Wednesday, but that's according to our calendar. According to the Jewish calendar, it was already 14 Nisan, Passover. As pointed out in John 18:28, the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans had not YET eaten passover, and still wanted to be able to do so, thus did not enter the Governor's headquarters.
Jesus was on the cross, and the Bible tells us that the sabbaths were drawing near, so they needed to get his body down quickly. Not just one, but multiple. The greek word in Matthew 28:1 and Luke 23:54 is "sabbaton," the plural form of sabbath.
Friday that week was a High Sabbath (which are associated with dates on the calendar given to God by the Jews, not with days of the week). He thus could not have been crucified on Friday, 15 Nisan, because that was Unleavened Bread, a high Sabbath, but instead on 14 Nisan, which started Wednesday night and continued into Thursday. Passover is not a sabbath day.
The answer to your "defeater," Idolater, of "why did Jesus keep the Passover early" is, quite simply, He didn't.
He and His disciples ate the Passover meal on the day of Passover, what would have been Wednesday night, because Jesus wanted to have one last meal with them before being crucified in the morning, then dying at 3 pm, and buried a few hours later.
Jesus ate the Passover, was betrayed at Gethsemane, was brought before Pontius Pilate to be questioned, was denied by Peter, was rejected by the Jews in favor of Barabbas, was led to the cross, died on the cross, and was buried in the tomb, all on Passover, 14 Nisan, the start of day one in the tomb. 15 Nisan the start of day two. 16 Nisan the start of day three. 17 Nisan before dawn, Jesus rose ON the third day since his burial.
Edit: Changed days of the week to Jewish calendar days to make it clearer, and added clarification on why they didn't kill the passover a day early.
I still don't get it. The two Sabbaths are the standard Saturday Sabbath, plus First Fruits, which always follows the first standard Sabbath during the feast of matzos (unleavened bread), which kicks off with Passover.
I get that the Jews who brought Jesus to the Romans hadn't eaten the Passover yet that night in which He was betrayed. It means they are all synced up, which is one confusion that's been resolved for me. (I'm not saying anybody else had this confusion.) They all killed the Passover at the same time, between sundown and midnight basically, on 14 Nisan.
Jesus and His disciples kept the feast, ate the Passover, before He was betrayed, but before the Jews who delivered Him to the Romans had eaten. So Jesus and His disciples kept the feast and ate the Passover, and then He was betrayed and the Jews gave Him to the Romans, and then they those same Jews ate, afterward, but still between sundown and midnight basically.
So this timeline has Jesus being put to death on 14 Nisan, just during the daytime portion, which would be too late to kill the Passover according to the law of Moses. But it would still be on the same day.
I get that. I just don't see why 14 Nisan can't be what we call Thursday night plus Friday daytime. It seems like that's still an available option.
I could be wrong.
===
I think it's a stretch to call it an assumption.
The word "Passover" meant the lamb, when they're talking about for example preparing the Passover, that's preparing the Passover lamb.
That's the least strange thing about the account, for a standard Roman Catholic.
Because Thursday night 2000 years ago, which is what we are talking about, occupied the first half of the calendar day. This topic is simply asking on what part of Thursday did the Lord's Supper take place.
The Feast of First Fruits is not itself a sabbath day.
Thursday was Passover (which began Wednesday night at nightfall. Friday was a High sabbath, Saturday was a normal Sabbath. Then Feast of First Fruits was Sunday, and Christ rose during the early morning hours (probably before or at dawn).
Jesus was crucified at 9 AM on Passover, 14 Nisan, Thursday morning, when all the other lambs were being killed, and died at 3 PM the same day, giving them a few hours to take his body down, and prepare it for burial, then was buried before complete darkness, which startted the High Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. (The "unleavened bread" was symbolic of His body, as "a little leaven leavens the whole lump" and leaven symbolizes sin, and Jesus was witthout sin, that's why He said that the bread symbolizes His body, and is NOT ACTUALLY His body in any way, shape, or form, nor does it become His body.)
Ate a feast, yes. Whether it was the Passover meal, I'm not sure.
Again, Jesus was crucified at 9 AM on 14 Nisan, and was dead by 3 PM. Far as I'm aware, that's plenty of time for people to kill the Passover lamb.
Because that would be 15 Nisan. Not 14 Nisan, and would put it on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was not only a sabbath day, but a HIGH Sabbath, which can fall on any day of the week, since it's tied to a date on the calendar, not to a day of the week.
Passover is ALWAYS 14 Nisan. Unleavened bread is ALWAYS 15 Nisan. Firstfruits is ALWAYS 17 Nisan.
It occurred after nightfall, which according to the Jewish Feasts calendar, was the beginning of 14 Nisan.
Compare to Genesis 1, "and there was evening and there was morning, Day [X]."
If we were to speak in the context of the calendar we use today, the Last Supper did not take place on Thursday, but rather Wednesday night.