LOST - discussion about the TV series LOST. ** SPOILER ALERT **

[The Graphite]

So the theory is that Ben wanted to be "the guy" and that Ben has been working with Jacob all along?

That's not really a theory. We have pretty much all knew that all along.

The only twist in the "theory" is that Jacob orchestrated his own death via Ben which has been theorized a great deal already.

I agree with much of what is in the theory but who wouldn't? It doesn't really go out on many "limbs" does it? It's basically a review of the Dr Linus episode.

No, I'm saying that Ben DID have communication with Jacob. He did get "lists" from him. He was devastated by the death of his daughter and wanted revenge on Widmore, but he never did lose any actual power or authority to John Locke. Locke was a sucker. He wasn't really in charge of anything.

The Others, as we knew them for the first several seasons, were a shill! I mean, look at them. They were supposedly these elite fighters, capable of coming and going in the jungle without a trace, with superior supplies and weapons and technology. And yet the Losties - mostly ordinary, average people from all walks of life with almost no resources - killed more of them than vice versa, and after all the times the survivors killed various Others - even ones who were unarmed - even still, Tom Friendly and Ryan didn't shoot Sayid, Jin and Bernard on the beach. This group of Others was a bunch of losers or at least a destraction, a fake group of Others, imho. Fractured and generally incompetent. Dogen and the temple were much more serious and on the level. Ben's Others were there to examine and test the survivors with various difficult scenarios, and they were cannon fodder for the Losties to blow away, right and left.

When Ben "lost" power and authority to Locke, he went off the island and still had vast networks of people and vast resources at his disposal. He was just as in charge as he ever was, and he protected the Oceanic Six, and made sure they could return to the island for Jacob's purposes. His loss of power was an illusion. He pretended to be angry and betrayed by Jacob. I think even his "revenge" against Widmore might have been a sham. He went to kill Penny? He shot Desmond only, and left her alone. Ben is a deeply committed and seriously determined man with a great deal of discipline. I think he conned Widmore, and did it to ultimately put Desmond in the hospital in a way that would be very, very visible to Widmore, thereby setting up Widmore to grab Desmond and send him back to the island, since Ben probably couldn't do it, himself (not directly). Ben couldn't convince Desmond to go back, so he dropped Desmond into Widmore's lap in an incapacitated state, like a present, and then walked away without harming Penny. It all fits together like a highly complex puzzle.

His actions on the island in Season 6 have been an act. His repentance to Ilana was an act. But, we'll see!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

His actions on the island in Season 6 have been an act. His repentance to Ilana was an act. But, we'll see!

I hear ya.

All I am saying is if all of that turns out to be the case it wouldn't be a major revelation. Ben/Henry Gale was doing that very thing in season 2 in the hatch (i.e., he led us to believe he was just an "other" but he turned out to be the leader of the others) and the Dr. Linus episode is a run down of a possible theory that has Ben in that position.

So.... while I like the theory, it isn't really a theory so much as it is a description of one of the characters in the show that has been hinted at for a long, long, time.

In the end, Ben will be the guy who was more in charge than was directly shown, or he was just a pawn like many of the other characters... neither of those two scenarios would be a major "twist" to the plot of the show.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

A question I haven't heard asked.

After last nights episode we now know that the "Adam and Eve" were actually the MIB and his own mother.

Yet, the episode also leads us to believe all of this happened a long, long, long, time ago.

But when Jack first discovers the bodies in the cave he says that based on their condition they probably died about 40-50 years ago.

What's up with that?

Possible explanations:

1. Bodies don't decay normally on the island.
2. When our losties came to the island unbeknown to them it was "another time" (at least on he island)
3. It was a mistake in the script of the show (that seems unlikely given that they could have easily made the bodies look older)
4. The original bodies were removed and replaced with "fresher" bodies.
5. Jacob, the MIB, and mother story actually happened in the future but later (still unseen) Jacob travels back in time via the FDW and starts a rift in time which leads us to where we are now.
6. Barney the dinosaur lives in the caves and comes out at night to massage the bodies with Bag Balm.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

If you want to read a FANTASTIC recap of last night's episode read this...

THINGS I NOTICED - "Across The Sea" by Vozzek69

It's fairly long but totally worth the read. The best part of the recap is this observation...

The ceremonial chanting and sharing of wine seemed largely symbolic to me. It was as if mother needed to convince Jacob that once he did this, his path was forever bound to the island. Jacob's still gullible at this point. He drinks up, and he believes her. Whether or not this truly does etch his destiny in stone remains to be seen, but this is where mother does something really, really slick: she recruits both Jacob and his brother to guard the island.

Jacob is 100% right. His brother was always first choice. But what he doesn't know: mother is shrewd enough to recognize that as 'good' as he is, Jacob can't guard the island alone. Jacob's honesty and commitment needs to be tempered by his brother's willingness to lie, be deceitful, and do anything needed to get the job done. Alone, each of them is only half a candidate. But together, they make an ideal guardian for the island's shores.​

And if that's true.... maybe that's a clue that both unLocke and Jack are needed as a team to continue to guard the island. :think:

 

[Yorzhik]

Smoky can't go across water, but he was able to go across the water out of the cave.

Jacob can't hurt the MIB, but he blooded his face pretty good twice. Maybe by "hurt" their mother meant "kill".

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Smoky can't go across water, but he was able to go across the water out of the cave.

I think that smokey can't leave the island therefore the water holds him in... in some way.

But he could still fly over streams and puddles on the island if he wanted to.

Jacob can't hurt the MIB, but he blooded his face pretty good twice. Maybe by "hurt" their mother meant "kill".

Or maybe their mother just told them that to make them believe it. Maybe the rules are nothing more than rules that don't actually bind them... but they obey them because they think they are supposed to.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Here is a pretty funny clip from the Jimmy Kimmel show...

Connect 4 million

 

[zoo22]

Adam/Eve have always been touted by the writers/producers as a long thought out/planned way to show viewers that they knew the end since the beginning...

I don't see how it has yet.

I mean, I'm okay with the explanation of the bodies, and I do believe they knew the end since the beginning, but left as is, I don't see how the Adam and Eve reveal shows a master plan. In fact, unless there's a bit more explanation, or something else comes into play, it actually adds doubt, because as Knight pointed out, they'd originally approximated the bodies were around 40/50 years old. If there's no further explanation for that, it makes no sense to have said it at all.

Or the "plan" could be related to the rocks Jack has.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Adam/Eve have always been touted by the writers/producers as a long thought out/planned way to show viewers that they knew the end since the beginning...

But it hasn't.

I mean, I'm okay with the explanation of the bodies, and I do believe they knew the end since the beginning, but left as is, I don't see how the Adam and Eve reveal shows a master plan. In fact, unless there's a bit more explanation, or something else comes into play, it actually adds doubt, because as Knight pointed out, they'd originally approximated the bodies were around 40/50 years old. If there's no further explanation for that, it makes no sense to have said it at all.

Or the "plan" could be related to the rocks Jack has.

In an interview Lindelof and Cuse were asked about this issue....

You've said many times that when people find out who Adam and Eve are, we'll all realize just how long you've been planning the mythology. Well, I went back and watched the "House of the Rising Sun" scene, and Jack says that the clothing looks like it's 50 years old. Is he just not very good at calculating the rate of decay on fabric?

CC: Jack is not really an expert in carbon dating.

DL: He's not really a forensic anthropologist. We need to bring in Bones.

CC: Or Charlotte. She's an anthropolgist.

DL: The other theory that I would like to throw out there is that Jacob and his mother were just expert craftsmen. They made those clothes on that loom so well, it would appear that they were only 50 years old in decomposition, when in fact it's several thousand.

CC: Or perhaps the fabric is magic. A lot of theories there, Alan.​

My guess is they are hiding something.

The entire interview can be read here it's really interesting.

 

[zoo22]

In an interview Lindelof and Cuse were asked about this issue....

You've said many times that when people find out who Adam and Eve are, we'll all realize just how long you've been planning the mythology. Well, I went back and watched the "House of the Rising Sun" scene, and Jack says that the clothing looks like it's 50 years old. Is he just not very good at calculating the rate of decay on fabric?

CC: Jack is not really an expert in carbon dating.

DL: He's not really a forensic anthropologist. We need to bring in Bones.

CC: Or Charlotte. She's an anthropolgist.

DL: The other theory that I would like to throw out there is that Jacob and his mother were just expert craftsmen. They made those clothes on that loom so well, it would appear that they were only 50 years old in decomposition, when in fact it's several thousand.

CC: Or perhaps the fabric is magic. A lot of theories there, Alan.​

My guess is they are hiding something.

The entire interview can be read here it's really interesting.

Great interview. One of the better that I've read from them in a while. Thanks for the link.

I agree that it seems like they're hiding something there. They do that multi-joke evading thing when they have something they don't want to say. I do hope there's a bit more to it.

But they could be also hiding that it was a slight mess up, too. Hope not.

But yeah, if the bodies are intended to really show a "master plan," it seems the Adam/Eve story isn't quite complete. IMO, it hasn't. Again, I'm fine with the explanation of the bodies. (Though I might have liked it if MIB himself had told someone that the body was his... Would have been cool to have MIB as Locke standing in front of his real dead body, angrily saying "that's who I was; that's the humanity that was taken away from me.")

In terms of the bodies being a good reconnection to the first season, and that in discovering the bodies, they essentially discovered the beginning of the story they were falling into, I think it's a great explanation. I suppose that was the intent. But if it is the end of that mystery, maybe they'd built that mystery up too much.

Still expecting the rocks to come into play.

Also, MIB had at least taken the form of his body after he was killed... He was able to inhabit it somehow. All of the scenes we've seen him in up until now took place after this episode's events.

 

[zoo22]

Keep in mind this thread is a SPOILER thread. It's where we talk about the show so.... only read this thread if you are not concerned about SPOILERS.

Oh, I know... I just meant my comment in terms of that I didn't want to hear it wasn't a good episode.

I've watched it again now, and I just hate the way they executed it... I like what happened (mostly), but I couldn't stand most of the acting and the general look/feel of it. It just felt really cheesy to me, even though plot-wise I liked it.

 

[zoo22]

We finally saw what Locke saw when he saw the monster.

That, to me, is more indicative of a master plan than Adam & Eve.

 

[zoo22]

Smoky can't go across water, but he was able to go across the water out of the cave.

I think that smokey can't leave the island therefore the water holds him in... in some way.

But he could still fly over streams and puddles on the island if he wanted to.

I think that when he'd said he can't fly across the water it's because he's essentially connected to the island.

There's definitely something about water, though... In this episode, it seemed a point made by his saying with the Donkey Wheel, he was "building a system that channels the water and the light."

Jacob can't hurt the MIB, but he blooded his face pretty good twice. Maybe by "hurt" their mother meant "kill".

Or maybe their mother just told them that to make them believe it. Maybe the rules are nothing more than rules that don't actually bind them... but they obey them because they think they are supposed to.

I hope we find out more about rules. Some of it does just seem about believing. But some not.

But I agree, the "never hurt" rule seems more about killing one another, rather than fistfights. ...But it sure seemed to me that Jacob killed MIB.

 

[mmstroud]

Stupid Dish DVR! I don't know why the start and finish times seem to always be several seconds off. I have the timer set to record for a whole minute past the end of the program and it still cut off the end of this week's episode! I'm guessing all I missed were the credits but I have to be sure.

Cut away to Kate and Jack finding the rocks and now we know who the bodies are. Then it cuts back to Jacob tucking the bag with the rocks under the bodies. That's where my recording cut off. Did I miss anything?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Stupid Dish DVR! I don't know why the start and finish times seem to always be several seconds off. I have the timer set to record for a whole minute past the end of the program and it still cut off the end of this week's episode! I'm guessing all I missed were the credits but I have to be sure.

Cut away to Kate and Jack finding the rocks and now we know who the bodies are. Then it cuts back to Jacob tucking the bag with the rocks under the bodies. That's where my recording cut off. Did I miss anything?

Oh man.... Really? You mean you didn't see the part about the floating mango that shines Gods face when you look directly at it?

 

[zoo22]

Stupid Dish DVR! I don't know why the start and finish times seem to always be several seconds off. I have the timer set to record for a whole minute past the end of the program and it still cut off the end of this week's episode! I'm guessing all I missed were the credits but I have to be sure.

Cut away to Kate and Jack finding the rocks and now we know who the bodies are. Then it cuts back to Jacob tucking the bag with the rocks under the bodies. That's where my recording cut off. Did I miss anything?

Cuts back to Kate/Jack, Locke comes into the cave, Jack's putting the stones back in the bag, Locke asks "who were these men?" Jack answers, "actually one of them is female," Locke says "...Our very own Adam & Eve."

Cut back to Jacob, crying, says "Goodbye brother... Goodbye."

 

[mmstroud]

Oh man.... Really? You mean you didn't see the part about the floating mango that shines Gods face when you look directly at it?

:reals: I knew it! I just knew it!

 

[zoo22]

Oh man.... Really? You mean you didn't see the part about the floating mango that shines Gods face when you look directly at it?

Oh, right... I forgot: After Jacob says "goodbye brother," there's a bit about a floating mango that shines God's face* when you look directly at it. And in the background it looks like there's a second floating mango (possibly a large kiwifruit?), with dark wisps of smoke coming out of it.

* But it was hard to tell if it was God's face in the floating mango or Frank's face.

 

[mmstroud]

Cuts back to Kate/Jack, Locke comes into the cave, Jack's putting the stones back in the bag, Locke asks "who were these men?" Jack answers, "actually one of them is female," Locke says "...Our very own Adam & Eve."

Cut back to Jacob, crying, says "Goodbye brother... Goodbye."

Thanks zoo - you're a gentleman and a scholar. :e4e:

 

[zoo22]

Thanks zoo - you're a gentleman and a scholar. :e4e:

:e4e:

I figure that must've been extremely frustrating having it cut off in the last seconds... Called for a quick response!