Limited atonement !

[marke]

According to Titus 2:14 what was the purpose for Christ giving Himself, they are listed in the verse, what are they ?

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Christ gave Himself for Christians for purposes that pertain only to Christians, but He also gave Himself for the whole world so that the whole world might be saved if only they would humble themselves at His word and seek His forgiveness for their sins.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Romans 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

 

[beloved57]

Yes, that's where YOUR logic takes you, though you won't bother to assess your own logic. It is incredible, but you keep doing it.

Im looking at the scripture. You suppose that Titus 2:14 refers to two people from that verse. To me it refers to everyone who has been redeemed from all iniquity and purified unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works. You think thats 2 people ? What about the the men Titus was told check their qualifications for the elders Titus 1:5

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

The aged men and women Chpt 2

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

The saved servants

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

You forgot about them didnt you ? You dont think they could be part of the us,

 

[Derf]

Im looking at the scripture. You suppose that Titus 2:14 refers to two people from that verse. To me it refers to everyone who has been redeemed from all iniquity and purified unto himself a peculiar people zealous of good works. You think thats 2 people ? What about the the men Titus was told check their qualifications for the elders Titus 1:5

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

The aged men and women Chpt 2

2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

The saved servants

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

You forgot about them didnt you ? You dont think they could be part of the us,

If "all men" doesn't mean "all men" here:
Acts 17:30 (KJV)
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Why would "us" mean more than just a small portion of those in Paul's and Titus' circles, maybe even just Paul and Titus, the writer and recipient of the letter.

 

[Hoping]

So you believe the verse just applies to Paul and Titus. Incredible

No, I believe it applies to every man.
I was just noting your literal interpretation of other verses, hoping your eyes might open a sliver.
Jesus died for all men, but not every man will comply with His love for them.
We have our part to do, for ourselves.

 

[beloved57]

hoping

No, I believe it applies to every man

It applies to every man who is redeemed from all iniquity, and purified unto Jesus Christ a peculiar people, zealous of good works

 

[Hoping]

hoping



It applies to every man who is redeemed from all iniquity, and purified unto Jesus Christ a peculiar people, zealous of good works

I agree.
But it also applies to everyone else who will repent of sin in the future too.

 

[beloved57]

I agree.
But it also applies to everyone else who will repent of sin in the future too.

If a person repent and believes its because they were one of those again "who Christ gave Himself for, redeemed from all iniquity, purifying them unto Himself, making them zealous of good works. Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But here is where you and i dont agree, if a person never repents of sin in the future, and consequently ends up in hell, then they were not one of the US of Titus 2:14 who Christ gave Himself for !

Do you still agree or no ?

 

[JudgeRightly]

If a person repent and believes its because they were one of those again "who Christ gave Himself for, redeemed from all iniquity, purifying them unto Himself, making them zealous of good works. Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But here is where you and I don't agree, if a person never repents of sin in the future, and consequently ends up in hell, then they were not one of the US of Titus 2:14 who Christ gave Himself for !

Do you still agree or no ?

You've still got it backwards.

God gave himself for the world, and anyone who believes will be saved. It's not "anyone who repents and believes does so because they were arbitrarily selected by God," it's, "God is not willing that any should perish" and "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

If someone doesn't repent, and ends up in Hell, it's not because God never chose them. It's because they REJECTED God's free gift to ALL MANKIND.

 

[beloved57]

You've still got it backwards.

God gave himself for the world, and anyone who believes will be saved. It's not "anyone who repents and believes does so because they were arbitrarily selected by God," it's, "God is not willing that any should perish" and "whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

If someone doesn't repent, and ends up in Hell, it's not because God never chose them. It's because they REJECTED God's free gift to ALL MANKIND.

Theres nothing backwards sir, those Christ gave himself for results in them being #1 Redeemed from all iniquity, purified unto himself, a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Read it Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Theres nothing backwards sir,

According to scripture, your beliefs are backwards.

those Christ gave himself for results in them being #1 Redeemed from all iniquity, purified unto himself, a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again, this is backwards.

Christ gave Himself for the world, so that anyone who believes in Him will be made into someone who is "redeemed from all iniquity, purified unto Himself, a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Read it Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The verse has nothing to do with God choosing individuals before the foundation of the world, nor does it agree with your a priori belief that Christ only gave Himself for specific people.

Again, you have it backwards. It's not "those Christ gave Himself for results in them being [X]," it's "those who believe, who are Christians, means that they will become [X]." [X] being what is said in Titus 2:14. Not because Christ specifically chose the individuals, but because Christ made the offer to all men, specifying that "whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!"

 

[Hoping]

If a person repent and believes its because they were one of those again "who Christ gave Himself for, redeemed from all iniquity, purifying them unto Himself, making them zealous of good works. Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But here is where you and i dont agree, if a person never repents of sin in the future, and consequently ends up in hell, then they were not one of the US of Titus 2:14 who Christ gave Himself for !

Do you still agree or no ?

He died for everyone.
But not everyone will prosper from His sacrifice.

Ford made LTDs for everyone, but not everyone bought one.
Does that mean Ford only made them for those who bought one?
Using your line of reasoning, the answer is yes.
But in reality, Ford made them for a world of car buyers.

You look at things from the perspective of the far future, and after the end of the world.
I see things in the present tense, where Christ's suffering and death is still available to all the folks on earth.
And, it will be available to everyone who will be born in the future.
They just have to reach out and take it.
That and repent of sin permanently, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
And still, they must endure faithfully till their end.
Fortunately for them, and us, God makes it possible through Jesus Christ.

 

[beloved57]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and redeemed unto God. Heb 9:12,15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Now those He died for and redeemed are they which are called, to receive the promise of eternal inheritance or eternal life.

In Gods economy of Salvation, His Kingdom, them who Christ died and redeemed shall be called Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Zech 10:8

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

That word hiss means to whistle, pipe it denotes the call of them to be gathered

So the redeemed by the death of Christ, will be effectually called, and that by name, and gathered to their Shepherd !

So the death of Christ is limited to the redeemed, and then called and gathered !

 

[marke]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and redeemed unto God. Heb 9:12,15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Now those He died for and redeemed are they which are called, to receive the promise of eternal inheritance or eternal life.

In Gods economy of Salvation, His Kingdom, them who Christ died and redeemed shall be called Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Zech 10:8

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

That word hiss means to whistle, pipe it denotes the call of them to be gathered

So the redeemed by the death of Christ, will be effectually called, and that by name, and gathered to their Shepherd !

So the death of Christ is limited to the redeemed, and then called and gathered !

God is able to save all who call upon Him because Jesus shed His blood for the sins of the world so that whosoever would call on Him could be saved.

 

[Bright Raven]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and redeemed unto God. Heb 9:12,15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Now those He died for and redeemed are they which are called, to receive the promise of eternal inheritance or eternal life.

In Gods economy of Salvation, His Kingdom, them who Christ died and redeemed shall be called Isa 43:1

But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Zech 10:8

I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.

That word hiss means to whistle, pipe it denotes the call of them to be gathered

So the redeemed by the death of Christ, will be effectually called, and that by name, and gathered to their Shepherd !

So the death of Christ is limited to the redeemed, and then called and gathered !

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.

To whom did the Father send His Son as Savior?

 

[beloved57]

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and reconciled unto God. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Eph 2:16

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross/or death, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now the word reconciled in Col 1:21 is the greek word apokatallassō:

1. to reconcile completely
2. to reconcile back again
3. bring back a former state of harmony

There is no such thing as Christ dying for people and they not be reconciled to God completely, which is nothing short of Salvation !

So His death is limited to the reconciled completely !

 

[Hoping]

hoping



It applies to every man who is redeemed from all iniquity, and purified unto Jesus Christ a peculiar people, zealous of good works

Did Christ die for every human being of mankind ? No, His Death was limited to them He died and reconciled unto God. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Eph 2:16

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross/or death, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now the word reconciled in Col 1:21 is the greek word apokatallassō:

1. to reconcile completely
2. to reconcile back again
3. bring back a former state of harmony

There is no such thing as Christ dying for people and they not be reconciled to God completely, which is nothing short of Salvation !

So His death is limited to the reconciled completely !

Only the manifestation of His death is manifested in/to the reconciled.
Now, lets get the rest of them reconciled so they too can manifest the life and death of Christ on this earth.

Your POV makes it impossible for anyone else to be converted that is not converted right now.
Since you started this thread, saying only the redeemed/reconciled receive redemption, how many others may have been redeemed and reconciled?
Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
BY your POV, they can not be redeemed, because they were not redeemed before they were redeemed.
What a tricky doctrine !
If your doctrine is true, nobody was converted since the doctrine's inception.

 

[beloved57]

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.

To whom did the Father send His Son as Savior?

Those whom Christ died and redeemed, I just showed you.

 

[beloved57]

Here are some scriptures that confirm limited atonement, or that Christ died for only some, not all without exception.

Jn 10:15

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Acts 20:28

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Eph 5:2

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. Cp Eph 5:25

Writing to the Church at Thessalonia 1:1; 1 Thess 5:9-10

Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

 

[beloved57]

The scripture indicates limited atonement by being specific for whom Christ came into the flesh and identified with. Did He take on flesh to identify with all humanity? Or did He take on flesh to identify with a segment of humanity? Scripture says He came and took on the flesh humanity of the Seed of Abraham. Heb 2:14,16-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Now the seed of Abraham, or Abrahams seed are a chosen people Ps 105:6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

The seed of Abraham is His friend, and Jesus says Jn 15:13


Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So His death is limited to His friends the chosen seed of Abraham, in Christ Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[beloved57]

Christs death is limited to them that God has not appointed wrath, but to obtain Salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord 1 Thess 5:9-10

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Thats very specific. Now who are the us that are to obtain Salvation ? 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Christ did not die for them appointed to wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: