beloved57
Well-known member
The Gospel consumes my mind at the time.Can I just ask why? And then I’ll quit changing the subject. Btw, no sarcasm here or being funny. I just truly wanted to know.
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
Poly
Blessed beyond measure
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Fair enough.
Right Divider
Body part
Which one?
Derf
Well-known member
"We" only included people who were alive when Paul wrote that. Since then, "we" has expanded to more people who have lived, but it obviously doesn't include people who don't exist yet.
Last edited:
Right Divider
Body part
Expanded?
beloved57
Well-known member
We know Jesus Christ Death was Limited, and not for all because Christ by his death has not taken away the sins of all men; for the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for their sins. Eph 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Because those whom Christ died, their sins have been taken away ! Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Because those whom Christ died, their sins have been taken away ! Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus died for all of mankind.
But most are not willing to pay the cost to take advantage of the offer.
Who do you suppose Jesus says "NO" to when they ask Him for forgiveness?
Derf
Well-known member
Were you ever a "child of disobedience", beloved57?
beloved57
Well-known member
Christs death is limited to them He obtained Eternal Redemption for, since what He obtains for us He lives to ensure the application of it Heb 9:12
neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Now by His own Blood signifies His Death, which by it He obtained eternal redemption for certain ones. Now who are they?
Recall back in Chapter 1 vs 14
Heb 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Its the heirs. Notice again Heb 6:17-18
. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us
And the heirs of promise dont just consist of some jews, but some Gentiles, the Church the Body of Christ Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Now by His own Blood signifies His Death, which by it He obtained eternal redemption for certain ones. Now who are they?
Recall back in Chapter 1 vs 14
Heb 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Its the heirs. Notice again Heb 6:17-18
. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us
And the heirs of promise dont just consist of some jews, but some Gentiles, the Church the Body of Christ Gal 3:29
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
beloved57
Well-known member
Christs death was limited to them He actually redeemed Titus 2:14
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The giving of Himself speaks of His death, and specifically says "for us", who are they? Why it's all that are redeemed from iniquity, and purified unto himself, who constitute a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
The giving of Himself speaks of His death, and specifically says "for us", who are they? Why it's all that are redeemed from iniquity, and purified unto himself, who constitute a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Christ either redeems those who repent and seek forgiveness of their own volition or He causes sinners to repent of His own volition, making God solely responsible for who lives and dies with or without hope. I do not believe God has any pleasure in the death of the wicked no matter what Calvin taught his gullible followers.
beloved57
Well-known member
According to Titus 2:14 what was the purpose for Christ giving Himself, they are listed in the verse, what are they ?
Have you found a verse you think proves God lied when He said He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He is not willing that any should perish but that all sinners would come to the acknowledgment of the truth?
beloved57
Well-known member
Again According to Titus 2:14 what was the purpose for Christ giving Himself, they are listed in the verse, what are they ?
That is like saying the US interstate system is only for motorcycles, cars, and trucks.
Those without a car, bike or truck can't use it.
But it is still there for them if they buy one.
Christ put no limits on who He loved enough to die for.
It is our reciprocating actions that will garner our deliverance.
As Paul and Titus both seemed to be believers, the "us" is appropriate.
Do you think Paul and Titus are the only ones that will be saved?
Paul sent, according to some, a "limited" letter.
According to the verse, He died for Paul and Titus.
Doesn't that mean nobody else will be saved?
You are looking at a mountain range through a pin-hole.
beloved57
Well-known member
So you believe the verse just applies to Paul and Titus. Incredible
From gotquestions.org
Argument 1: Limited Atonement Is Hermeneutically Insupportable
Arguing against limited atonement are verses which appear to teach universal atonement, the absence of verses that explicitly limit Christ’s atonement, verses that declare the necessity of faith for salvation, and several Old Testament types of Christ that do not fit the limited atonement paradigm.
Passages Supporting Universal Atonement
Universal (or unlimited) atonement is supported throughout the New Testament. John 3:16–17 says that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” The Greek word kosmos, translated “the world,” covers the inhabitants of the entire earth. Other verses supporting unlimited atonement include John 1:29, where Jesus is said to take away “the sin of the world”; Romans 11:32, in which God has mercy on “all” the disobedient; and 1 John 2:2, which says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
None of these verses contain any kind of limitation, stated or implied, on Christ’s sacrifice. As if saying that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world was not sufficient, the apostle John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means “whole, entire, all, complete.” Unless limited atonement is presumed, there is no solid basis for limiting the extent of the atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2.
Passages Only Mentioning Atonement for Believers
On the other side of the coin, there are verses that say Jesus died for those who believe. Verses that seem to support limited atonement include John 10:15, where Jesus says, “I lay down my life for the sheep”; and Revelation 5:9, which indicates that Jesus’ blood “purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.”
These passages and others only mention a select group of people as being the focus of God’s redemptive work. However, none of the passages explicitly limit His offer of salvation. They simply say Jesus died for those who believe, not that He died only for those who believe. Jesus said He laid down His life for the sheep; He did not say that He laid down His life only for the sheep. There remains a larger group of which the sheep are but a part.
Faith Necessary for Salvation
“Universal atonement” is not the same as “universalism,” which says that everyone will be saved and go to heaven. Unlimited atonement acknowledges the reality that Jesus’ atonement must be accepted by faith, and that not everyone will believe. Four-point Calvinists believe that salvation comes only to those who have faith; it is faith that brings the saving effects of the atonement to the Christian. Unbelievers, though offered the gift of salvation through the atonement of Christ, have rejected God’s gift. Some passages proclaiming the necessity of faith for salvation are Luke 8:12; John 20:31; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:9; and Ephesians 2:8.
Old Testament Types of Christ
An oft-repeated type of Christ presents Him as a lamb. The Old Testament sacrificial system and the Passover celebration clearly show the penalty of sin and the need for us to have an innocent substitute to cover our sin (see 1 Corinthians 5:7). At the time of the first Passover, all the Israelites had the opportunity to sacrifice a lamb and apply its blood to their doorposts. At the same time, each family had to exercise faith in God. The Passover’s atonement was universal in that it was offered to all, but the atonement still had to be applied individually, by faith.
Another type of Christ in the Old Testament is the bronze serpent on the pole (Numbers 21:5–9). Jesus related this object to Himself in John 3:14, explaining that He must be “lifted up” from the earth. During the plague of the “fiery serpents” in Moses’ day, every person who looked to the bronze serpent—believing that God would heal—was made whole. The healing power was universal in that it was available to every one of the Israelites, dependent only upon their willingness to obey. Jesus compared that incident to His own death on the cross and the spiritual healing He provides.
Argument 2: Christian Tradition Opposes Limited Atonement
Limited atonement has always been a controversial belief. The Synod of Dort in 1619 issued the points of doctrine now known as TULIP; however, several theologians at the synod rejected limited atonement while accepting the other four points of Calvinism.
Long before the Protestant confessions and synods, though, the early church father Athanasius was describing universal atonement. In his "On the Incarnation of the Word" (2.9), Athanasius writes that Jesus’ death was “a substitute for the life of all” and that, because of Jesus’ sacrifice, “the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all.” Note the word all. Athanasius’ point is that Jesus’ death atoned for all of humanity.
Ironically, Calvin himself may not have placed much value on the idea of a limited atonement. After all, the five points of what is called “Calvinism” came from a synod in the Netherlands almost 60 years after his death. Calvin had this to say about John 3:16: “It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. . . . And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World; . . . he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life” (Commentary on John, Vol. 1).
Argument 3: Limited Atonement Would Make It Impossible to Genuinely Offer Salvation to All
Limited atonement affects one’s beliefs regarding evangelism and the offer of salvation. Essentially, if only those who will be saved (the elect) are atoned for, there is no atonement to be offered to anyone else. You could only truly offer salvation to the elect. Even a cursory look at Jesus’ ministry shows that He extended invitations of salvation to people He knew would take part in crucifying Him (see Luke 13:34). In the book of Acts, Paul preached to large portions of entire towns, Peter to thousands at a time. Salvation was offered to all without caveat, proviso, or discrimination. Repentance and faith were the required responses (see Matthew 21:32). If Christ’s death did not provide atonement for everyone, then the apostles, and even Jesus Himself, were offering something that most of their audiences could never receive.
Conclusion:
Limited atonement is the point of traditional Calvinism that has caused the most confusion and consternation among Bible-believing theologians. Will only the elect be saved? Yes. However, Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all sin, and the offer of salvation is universal. Our invitation for others to accept Christ should echo the Spirit’s call in Revelation 22:17: “‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”
Argument 1: Limited Atonement Is Hermeneutically Insupportable
Arguing against limited atonement are verses which appear to teach universal atonement, the absence of verses that explicitly limit Christ’s atonement, verses that declare the necessity of faith for salvation, and several Old Testament types of Christ that do not fit the limited atonement paradigm.
Passages Supporting Universal Atonement
Universal (or unlimited) atonement is supported throughout the New Testament. John 3:16–17 says that “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” The Greek word kosmos, translated “the world,” covers the inhabitants of the entire earth. Other verses supporting unlimited atonement include John 1:29, where Jesus is said to take away “the sin of the world”; Romans 11:32, in which God has mercy on “all” the disobedient; and 1 John 2:2, which says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
None of these verses contain any kind of limitation, stated or implied, on Christ’s sacrifice. As if saying that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world was not sufficient, the apostle John specifically included the Greek word holou, which means “whole, entire, all, complete.” Unless limited atonement is presumed, there is no solid basis for limiting the extent of the atonement mentioned in 1 John 2:2.
Passages Only Mentioning Atonement for Believers
On the other side of the coin, there are verses that say Jesus died for those who believe. Verses that seem to support limited atonement include John 10:15, where Jesus says, “I lay down my life for the sheep”; and Revelation 5:9, which indicates that Jesus’ blood “purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.”
These passages and others only mention a select group of people as being the focus of God’s redemptive work. However, none of the passages explicitly limit His offer of salvation. They simply say Jesus died for those who believe, not that He died only for those who believe. Jesus said He laid down His life for the sheep; He did not say that He laid down His life only for the sheep. There remains a larger group of which the sheep are but a part.
Faith Necessary for Salvation
“Universal atonement” is not the same as “universalism,” which says that everyone will be saved and go to heaven. Unlimited atonement acknowledges the reality that Jesus’ atonement must be accepted by faith, and that not everyone will believe. Four-point Calvinists believe that salvation comes only to those who have faith; it is faith that brings the saving effects of the atonement to the Christian. Unbelievers, though offered the gift of salvation through the atonement of Christ, have rejected God’s gift. Some passages proclaiming the necessity of faith for salvation are Luke 8:12; John 20:31; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:9; and Ephesians 2:8.
Old Testament Types of Christ
An oft-repeated type of Christ presents Him as a lamb. The Old Testament sacrificial system and the Passover celebration clearly show the penalty of sin and the need for us to have an innocent substitute to cover our sin (see 1 Corinthians 5:7). At the time of the first Passover, all the Israelites had the opportunity to sacrifice a lamb and apply its blood to their doorposts. At the same time, each family had to exercise faith in God. The Passover’s atonement was universal in that it was offered to all, but the atonement still had to be applied individually, by faith.
Another type of Christ in the Old Testament is the bronze serpent on the pole (Numbers 21:5–9). Jesus related this object to Himself in John 3:14, explaining that He must be “lifted up” from the earth. During the plague of the “fiery serpents” in Moses’ day, every person who looked to the bronze serpent—believing that God would heal—was made whole. The healing power was universal in that it was available to every one of the Israelites, dependent only upon their willingness to obey. Jesus compared that incident to His own death on the cross and the spiritual healing He provides.
Argument 2: Christian Tradition Opposes Limited Atonement
Limited atonement has always been a controversial belief. The Synod of Dort in 1619 issued the points of doctrine now known as TULIP; however, several theologians at the synod rejected limited atonement while accepting the other four points of Calvinism.
Long before the Protestant confessions and synods, though, the early church father Athanasius was describing universal atonement. In his "On the Incarnation of the Word" (2.9), Athanasius writes that Jesus’ death was “a substitute for the life of all” and that, because of Jesus’ sacrifice, “the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all.” Note the word all. Athanasius’ point is that Jesus’ death atoned for all of humanity.
Ironically, Calvin himself may not have placed much value on the idea of a limited atonement. After all, the five points of what is called “Calvinism” came from a synod in the Netherlands almost 60 years after his death. Calvin had this to say about John 3:16: “It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. . . . And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World; . . . he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life” (Commentary on John, Vol. 1).
Argument 3: Limited Atonement Would Make It Impossible to Genuinely Offer Salvation to All
Limited atonement affects one’s beliefs regarding evangelism and the offer of salvation. Essentially, if only those who will be saved (the elect) are atoned for, there is no atonement to be offered to anyone else. You could only truly offer salvation to the elect. Even a cursory look at Jesus’ ministry shows that He extended invitations of salvation to people He knew would take part in crucifying Him (see Luke 13:34). In the book of Acts, Paul preached to large portions of entire towns, Peter to thousands at a time. Salvation was offered to all without caveat, proviso, or discrimination. Repentance and faith were the required responses (see Matthew 21:32). If Christ’s death did not provide atonement for everyone, then the apostles, and even Jesus Himself, were offering something that most of their audiences could never receive.
Conclusion:
Limited atonement is the point of traditional Calvinism that has caused the most confusion and consternation among Bible-believing theologians. Will only the elect be saved? Yes. However, Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all sin, and the offer of salvation is universal. Our invitation for others to accept Christ should echo the Spirit’s call in Revelation 22:17: “‘Come!’ Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”
Derf
Well-known member
Yes, that's where YOUR logic takes you, though you won't bother to assess your own logic. It is incredible, but you keep doing it.
Derf
Well-known member
There's a confusion about what "saved" means, too, which shows up in the gotquestions article. I didn't see where they used 1 Tim 4:10, but there God is specifically called the "savior of all men, specially of those that believe." If He's the savior of all men, then Jesus just not have died for just the elect. If it's "specially of those that believe," then it must mean belief makes a difference in to what extent He's the savior of some over others, but not whether He's the savior of all. Unfortunately, @beloved57 would rather make the "good news" into "horrible news" by his perverted interpretations.