Cruciform
New member
You, however, can and often have been. Back to Post #78.
Limited Atonement Means Limited Faith
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I teach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You cannot refute that. It refutes your anti-Christ religion.
Your Catholic church has no Gospel. All that you have is religion which is worthless.
Cruciform
New member
This is in fact the major point on which you have been repeatedly refuted on this forum. Back to Post #82 above.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4Modern English Version (MEV)
The Resurrection of Christ
1 Now, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which you have received, and in which you stand.
2 Through it you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: how Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 was buried, rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
Cruciform
New member
Pate is correct about "the Gospel" as far as these particular biblical texts are concerned. He has not needed to be refuted on these specific points.
beloved57
Well-known member
No you dont, you neither believe or understand those verses, in fact you teach a Justification/Salvation by works, by what a person does !
fishrovmen
Active member
Pate's "gospel" (so called) includes the imputation of previously forgiven sins.
beloved57
Well-known member
It sure does ! He is on record saying that, making God Unjust !
Dialogos
Well-known member
The bible does say that Jesus is the Savior of the world, the question is, "what does that mean?"
Lets look at the verses you provided:
Yes, Jesus did say that. So how we define "world" (κοσμος) makes a great deal of difference in our understanding of what Jesus meant.Robert Pate said:
The Greek word κοσμος can mean:
1. the world and everything in it,
2. the world and everyone in it, from time beginning until eternity, the world and everyone in it, without exception, at present,
3. the planet that we live on
4. the world's wicked system of thinking and behaving,
5. Humanity in general, on the world, without distinction but not without exception.
I would argue that def. 5 best fits what Jesus is saying in John 12:47 for a number of reasons.
1. Jesus will judge (condemn) some as is clear from texts like Matthew 25:31-32; John 5:22, 27 and Acts 10:42. He will judge all unbelievers. We have to ask whether Jesus came to save those He knew, from eternity past, would not believe..?
2. Jesus has not saved every single human being in the world, without exception. There are those who have never heard the gospel and those who have heard and rejected. A cursory reading of the book of Revelation makes it clear that Jesus doesn't save everyone in the world, without exception.
3. The context of the verse makes it clear that some are providentially hindered from hearing the gospel.
"(John 12:36-41 NKJ) "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them. But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."
4. That leads us to ask a pretty important question, do think that Jesus failed in the mission He was sent to accomplish? Jesus said He was sent to save the world, right? If by world we must mean every single person who has ever lived in the world, without exception, then any honest analysis must conclude that Jesus failed.
If, however, you account for κοσμος meaning: "humanity, in general, without distinction", then Jesus has and will completely succeed. Every tribe, tongue language and nation will be represented before the throne and in that sense, Jesus gloriously succeeds in saving the world!
Amen!
This verse is routinely butchered. Its mostly the fault of a slavish adherence to tradition in the way it is translated.Pate said:
"So" in that verse does not mean "So very much..." It means "In this way." That's what ουτω means: "In this manner."
God loved the world in this way, He sent the Son.
Pate's understanding of this verse leads him to some very troubling conclusions. Pate believes that because Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world that this means that the whole world's sins are effectively propitiated. So unbelievers have to have their sins imputed back to them at judgment.Pate said:
:nono:
John 8:24 dispels that myth. Jesus says that if you don't believe you die in your sins, not that your get your sins imputed back to you.
A more reasonable understanding of this verse, from both a Calvinistic and Arminian perspective, is that Jesus is the only propitiation the world will ever get. He is the propitiation of our sins (believers) and the only propitiation for the whole world. If your sins are not propitiated by Jesus, there is no other propitiation available.
See comments on John 12:47.
Now Pate makes some illogical leaps.
:nono:Pate said:
The Second Person of the Trinity was Lord before Jesus was every born. Jesus, was Lord before He was ever crucified. Jesus is Lord because of Who He is, not who He died for. What leads us to such a man centered, selfish theology that Jesus' Lordship is pinned to what He did or did not do for us?
First, this is a subtle, but treacherous twisting of Acts 2:36. This verse does not teach that Jesus was made Lord and Christ because of the atonement. Peter points out that the One that that they crucified was the One the Father made Lord and Christ. No need to run to erroneous conclusions.Pate said:
An illustration will help clear up the confusion. If I say, "Let all of England know that the Archbishop of Canterbury has crowned this man, Henry the VI, as King of England, this man whom you have imprisoned and murdered.
Does that mean that the Archbishop of Canterbury crowned the King because his subjects rebelled against him?
:nono:
Jesus was both Lord and Savior from birth, long before the crucifixion, Luke 2:11 makes that crystal clear. Pate's theology runs afoul of Luke 2:11 which means that Pate is wrong.
Second, Colossians 2:15 doesn't say this either.
(Colossians 2:15 ESV) He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Yes, this is what Jesus did, the text does not say that God waited to make Jesus Lord until He disarmed the rulers and authorities...So, my first question to Robert Pate is this:
Robert, given your definition of world, presumably meaning everyone who has ever or will ever live, did Jesus fail at saving the world?
Jesus has victorously defeated sin death and the devil.
"And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.
As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished and Jesus is Lord, Revelation 19:16.
God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Hebrews 1:3.
It is only because Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
Salvation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus.
1. Like John the Baptizer before him, Jesus believed in a God of repentance and not blood sacrifice.
2. He talked of a God that desired "mercy, not sacrifice."
3. The prayer he taught to his followers stressed repentance and forgiveness of others.
4. In the last week of his life he attacked the temple, its sacrificial rituals and the priestly class that sanctioned it.
5. He freely offered and granted salvation without a bloody sacrifice plenty of times long before he turned his face to Jerusalem in the last days.
6. Of course, since the Bible was written by men inspired by God there are going to be a diverse number of theologies and traditions in the text. And this means that like Paul and John's gospel, there are going to be other theologies and traditions that see sin and redemption differently.
For myself, I am convinced Jesus saw a God of compassion that did not mandate the spilling of blood for human redemption.
2. He talked of a God that desired "mercy, not sacrifice."
3. The prayer he taught to his followers stressed repentance and forgiveness of others.
4. In the last week of his life he attacked the temple, its sacrificial rituals and the priestly class that sanctioned it.
5. He freely offered and granted salvation without a bloody sacrifice plenty of times long before he turned his face to Jerusalem in the last days.
6. Of course, since the Bible was written by men inspired by God there are going to be a diverse number of theologies and traditions in the text. And this means that like Paul and John's gospel, there are going to be other theologies and traditions that see sin and redemption differently.
For myself, I am convinced Jesus saw a God of compassion that did not mandate the spilling of blood for human redemption.
Your train has run off the track and it is a terrible wreck.
There is only one Gospel, Galatians 1:8, 9.
In this Gospel Jesus atones for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2.
beloved57
Well-known member
You dont believe the Gospel, TULIP is the Gospel !
fishrovmen
Active member
Excellent post!
Instead of using your doctrinal vernacular, try using common or Biblical vernacular.
Imputation in it's normal context, means to replace missing statistical data with substituted values.
fishrovmen
Active member
That is Pates doctrine, not mine; and it isn't biblical.
fishrovmen
Active member
Try Googling the phrase "God imputes sins back to people - Robert Pate" and you will find all the different threads where he said it, including other forums.
So I can assume you don't know what you meant when you posted it?
Why the all the deflection?